Power plant and Steel in the same city

[darthdroid]

Also,

As I think it was Red Knight that proved: Industries grow based on number of carloads either in OR out of that industry.

This indicates that in most cases, one will grow first. For example, if you are shipping steel OUT of a steel mill, it will grow first (due to extra shipments out-the steel mill and power plant have same exact carloads in, but powerplant has zero out, steel has x out)-so it is common to see a steel mill get more money (like 2 to 1) due to the fact that it tends to grow first.

On the other side of the coin, if you are shipping oil INTO your power plant, that is extra shipments IN to the powerplant, so it will grow first and again cause a 2 to 1 like ratio (20% vs 35% or later 35% vs 50%) in favor of the power plant.
But ultimately, anytime 2 industries share a resource, no matter what, where, how, they still each get 50% of that good, only payment/revenues differ-never percentages of the resource (coal, oil, wood) into the 2 plants.

However, I am changing my mind about the causes of price changes. There is indeed an effect, but not a consistent one, of something here. It's not trains. It may be cities with that type of good being used, or it may be the number of mines involved of the same type. Interestingly though, again it is not consistent, for example: When I added additional coal mines into the mix, the price of coal went UP (not down as economics of the real world would dictate). But in other cases, like steel, it does seem to follow (loosely) laws of economics-the more steel in the market, the lower the price will drop. Then manufactured goods didn't go either way, it seemed to stay the same price, very fixed for 95% of the time.

So it seems like there is a base price with maybe random fluctuations, maybe not. Car loads seem to affect it, but not the same way for each good, and nothing that seems like a direct, isolated effect yet-very strange.

I tried adding more trains from the same mine-no effect. I added new coal mines into a route (different steel mill) and the price of coal went up. More tests are in order, but most of what I said (including the most important part about industry sizes being the ONLY cause of revenue differences between 2 mines using same good in same city) seems to remain true.

[Jancsika]

There is a RRT_Events.xml file which makes prices, productions etc. fluctuate. I am not sure if consumption makes any difference. I think it does not.
As you recall we sort of reduced the events file to some very basic (Global) events, because it was suspected that if the event file has an event, lets say: “increased coal production” and can not find any coal in the scenario, it might crash.
Jancsika.

[snoopy55]

I tried putting both in a city and at first it seemed that every load was making the same money between them, but I tried it just now and it doesn't seem to. Has anyone else tried this with any success?

K, I just did several tests and think I can answer all the questions now:

First, in answer to SierraElite: The reason the 2 industries made the same money at one point, and not at another was on the first run when they made the SAME money, the industries were the SAME size (both small probably). On the 2nd run, one of them had grown to medium size (in this case). This caused the difference in the examples we've all given - at least on the games not designed by modders.

So the industry changed sizes, that's all. Before, both steel mill and power plant were both small industries, thus both got 20% of any price of coal delivered to that city. When the steel mill (assumed) grew to medium size, it now received 35% and the powerplant still only got 20%. So I am quite confident that no matter what happens, they still each get 50% of the coal-how much you get paid depends on the size of each industry.

Now to snoopy's question: No, additional steel mills do not seem to affect the price of coal at all, nor do additional powerplants being used on the map, by the same coal mines or by different, previously unused coal mines.

These are the things I noticed about the price fluctuations of a good:

1/ Price only changes if the good is being hauled on the map. In other words, I was only using coal in these tests and found that only its price changed (I assume due to consumption/use). None of the other industries showed price fluctuations, they stayed constant at their starting prices.

2/ Price of a good fluctuates randomly, up and down, apparently for no particular reason; there is no direct cause that I can see of the price changes on these small fluctuations-they went both up and down but overall did tend to decrease (which kind of suggests what snoopy was saying-that demand has decreased due to a supply existing). The price of coal appeared to fluctuate between 19k and 11k and perhaps goes lower, I only ran my tests for about 15-20 years each.

3/ Events can of course change the price of coal both up and down-these events again have no affect on how much coal goes to the steel mill or powerplant.

4/ It does not matter if you build the 2nd industry at the same time or later-except in the regard that the first industry has received more shipments than the later built (2nd) industry and as a result, upgrades in size earlier which then changes the revenues on each as described in first paragraph.

5/ Whether or not you actually SHIP the steel out to a car/bomb factory has NO effect on the revenue of the steel mill. Nor does letting steel pile up at the steel mill (not shipping it, just hoarding it) affect the price of coal.

Thank you for testing that.

Also, again, you get NOTHING for the steel you ship to the auto industry at your steel mill, NOTHING!!!
Only the auto industry gets paid for the steel that comes in-only the good demanded, not the good shipped, pays an industry. So you must own the auto factory to get paid for that steel from an industry.

Now you DO get paid for delivering the steel, but only for the steel itself, you don't get paid at the steel mill.
Whatever the value of the steel is at that time is what you will get paid for each carload of steel-and the train makes you that $, not a factory.

I could run more tests (and likely will) but I bet that steel is just like coal: That is, it fluctuates randomly if steel is being shipped to any degree, anywhere on the map, but increase in steel activity does not change the prices, a random function or algorithm in the game does. And of course random events that pertain to steel would change its price.

This I have to discuss.

First, your wording is a bit off. "Only the auto industry gets paid for the steel that comes in" The Auto Industry does not get paid, you, the railroad, gets paid. You state this right here- "Now you DO get paid for delivering the steel" The Auto Industry actually looses at first.

I just ran a test on a Refinery. The start value was $150,000. I ran 8 carloads of Oil to it and killed the train. The value of the Refinery went down to $134,000 and the yearly income went to $33,000 and slowly dropped to $0 in one year. The value of the Refinery was still at $134,000. Second step, ship out the Manufactured Goods. As each car was loaded the value of the Refinery went up $1,000 to $142,000. Now, if you owned the Refinery, you would get the $8,000, so you do get paid for the Goods when they leave AND when you deliver them to the next point. This seems to be why the Steel Mill increased in value faster than the Power Plant.

Someone would actually have to test each Good to see how much the Industry gains when it "sells" the Good, meaning when it is loaded onto the train.

Power Plant:

Start,1856:_____$102,000
8 loads Oil______$98,000
Oil shipment stopped
1858_________$110,000
1860_________$106,000
7/62_________$112,000
8/63_________$118,000
1/70_________$124,000
1/79_________$130,000

So, even without receiving Goods, the Power Plant gains worth. Running it longer might prove interesting since 2 of the KF files in the KFM are called "powerplant_level_layer_decay_3_to_2.kf" and "powerplant_level_layer_decay_2_to_1.kf". All the Industries have a set of these.

As to price fluctuations, those are set in the RRT_Goods.xml. Passengers and Mail seem to have a multiplier somewhere, but the rest are set. Food for instance is <MinPrice>12000</MinPrice> & <MaxPrice>24000</MaxPrice>. Now as to whether someone could change these in online playing, I don't know. But you can change them, and when new Goods are created, these are set. So, there is a top and bottom price that can not be overstepped by the game.

And again, as 8 cars unload you will see the price you receive go lower somewhere around the 4th or 5th. That may vary also.

And Jancsika, the Events do not cause a map to crash because it cannot find a Good. I just loaded my Side to Side map and deleted the Events XML. I then started it up and got two trains shipping Grapes to the Jelly Factory and left it to run. The first newspaper was for Wool, which the map has. The second was for Fish, which the map does not have. So, for the umteenth time, the Events file does NOT cause crashes just because a Good is called up that is not in the map.

Now, after 2 1/2 hours of testing, I'm going to bed.

[darthdroid]

This I have to discuss.

First, your wording is a bit off. "Only the auto industry gets paid for the steel that comes in" The Auto Industry does not get paid, you, the railroad, gets paid. You state this right here- "Now you DO get paid for delivering the steel" The Auto Industry actually looses at first.
...
if you owned the Refinery, you would get the $8,000, so you do get paid for the Goods when they leave AND when you deliver them to the next point. This seems to be why the Steel Mill increased in value faster than the Power Plant.

I disagree. First of all, it is the industry that gets paid. If a railroad company owns that industry, the money goes to them. But even if someone doesn't own it, the revenue still shows on that industry. The industry does not get paid when a shipment is sent out. It only gets paid when it takes a shipment of whatever it demands (coal in our case). So the steel mill makes money when it receives coal. It does not make money when steel is delivered.
Again, I ran several tests on this. I did tests where steel was allowed to pile up and go nowhere. And I also did tests where the steel was shipped. Both simulations (all else was held constant to narrow down this variable) had the steel mill making the same money-proving what I'm saying-how much steel it ships is irrelevant. This is also indicated by the simulation where the powerplant and steel mill are in the same town, sharing the coal. If what you are saying is true, the steel plant would be ahead as it is getting paid for something the powerplant is not: Steel-yet that does not happen, they make the exact same money-also proving steel mill does not get paid for deliveries of steel (auto plant does). This is also true of other industries: The auto plant does not get money when cars are shipped or delivered, it only gets paid for steel that is delivered. It is clear to me that industry revenue revolves around the good that industry demands, not the finished or intermediate good it provides. Again, the only difference in the situation is that by shipping something out, like steel, ultimately the steel plant will make more than the powerplant but only because it grows in size quicker and thus gets a higher percentage of coal revenue than the powerplant until the powerplant catches up in size (to medium size) and this would repeat when the steel plant would grow to large size first (due to extra shipments that powerplant gets no credit for).

The only other issue relevant here is this: I do think that it is possible that shipments out may affect the price of coal-so if you are shipping steel, it may affect the value of coal and thus create a small difference in the revenue of the steel mill-but as I explained above, it might actually DECREASE the value of coal. In that case, shipping steel means that the steel mill actually makes LESS MONEY. This last part has not been verified, just speculated upon, I hope to test that and if you're bored you can help!

But I'm 100% sure that the steel mill does NOT get paid for shipping steel at either end-it's irrelevant to the steel mill, only coal matters to the steel mill's revenue stream.

[darthdroid]

I would also point this out: Take pills. Who gets paid for pills? The hospital? Or the nitrate factory? The hospital gets paid for pills. If what you are saying were true, then both the nitrate factory (being the one getting paid for a delivery) would get paid AND the hospital would be paid for accepting those pills-double payment?

Anything is possible, and I haven't tested all the goods/resources, but I did extensive tests on coal-and only the good demanded by an industry gives that industry payment (or its owner if it is owned). There is no direct payment of a shipment for the industry that shipped it out, only to the industry that accepts the good. You do get paid for the steel-as a railroad. You do not get paid at the steel mill for it. But when you send coal there, you get paid both for the coal, and for the "processing" of that coal if you own the industry that processed it. (thus you get paid in 2 places when you own that industry and ship the good it demands to it). So to be paid AT AN INDUSTRY for steel, the only industry that can be is at the auto factory or bomb factory as those are the only places that demand steel. If you don't own the factory, you (the railroad) get paid for the steel, nothing else and you get no payment at your steel mill, just at the train that delivered the steel. BUT if you owned the car factory, you'd get both payment on the train for the steel delivery and also at the car factory for processing it.

Lastly, the steel mill does NOT increase faster due to extra payments. Run this simulation: DON'T ship any steel, have a powerplant and steel mill in the same city, start the shipments of coal when both plants are there and watch: They'll grow at exactly the same rate, they'll make the exact same money and they'll both go to medium at the SAME time and so the steel mill will NEVER get ahead. BUT if you SHIP the steel, now that mill is getting credit (NOT MONEY) for extra carloads-so it will arrive at 50 or 100 or whatever it was on red knight's table, sooner than the powerplant-so in that case it jumps ahead at some point-but it's not making more money UNTIL it grows to medium size. And when it does grow, it's only making more money because it's medium and the powerplant is small so 20% vs 35%-that's the only reason, it's not because you're steel shipments give you some extra payment.

[Jancsika]

And Jancsika, the Events do not cause a map to crash because it cannot find a Good. I just loaded my Side to Side map and deleted the Events XML. I then started it up and got two trains shipping Grapes to the Jelly Factory and left it to run. The first newspaper was for Wool, which the map has. The second was for Fish, which the map does not have. So, for the umteenth time, the Events file does NOT cause crashes just because a Good is called up that is not in the map.

I just did a search for the “Events” and here are some references. Some of the by Snoopy55.

http://www.hookedgamers.com/forums/view ... ent#p32039

http://www.hookedgamers.com/forums/view ... ent#p37192

http://www.hookedgamers.com/forums/view ... ent#p34822
Jancsika

[snoopy55]

OK, you have missed what I said. Let's start a map. You do not own any Industries.

You start a train at the Coal Mine. No money changes hands unless you want to count the purchase of the Engine, but we'll say you already had that.

The Steel Plant has a value of $150,000. You run 8 loads of Coal to it. Now I'm going to use random number on the part of the value of the Coal. The first car goes for $19,000. This money goes to you, the railroad owner. The second car, $19,000. The third, $19,000. 4th, $18,000. 5th, $18,000. 6th, $18,000. 7th, $17,000 and 8th, $17,000. So, you have gained $145,000, minus whatever maintenance costs there were. If you look at the Steel Mill, it now has a value of $134,000, or $2,000 per carload less than before. (don't know why, it just did) The yearly revenue now reads at $33,XXX. Stop the Coal delivery. The yearly revenue will naturally drop month by month. At two to three years after the last receiving of Coal, the value of the Steel Mill will go up to $141,000.

The Second test I did I restarted the map. I shipped 8 cars of Oil to the Power Plant. It went from $102,000 to $98,000. In two years the value went up to $110, two more years $down to $106,000 and so on as I listed in my other post.

Now to the shipping. I ran Oil to a Refinery, 8 cars of it. The Refinery produced 8 loads of Manufactured Goods. I picked up those 8 loads and shipped them out (I had no destination, but they did leave the Refinery). As they were loaded onto the cars, the value of the Refinery went UP $1,000 for each car. I received nothing for this, the Refinery did.

In all three cases I stopped the shipments of raw materials after the first delivery.

The map used was the SMR Picture Studio. The map was made by Dr Fragg ( http://www.hookedgamers.com/forums/view ... 437#p24437 ) and is a fully random map with nothing edited in it or the original SMR.

Whenever a Good like Steel is delivered, the railroad also receives delivery fees. This is real life, the railroads do not transport stuff for nothing. And a factory does receive money for shipping something to the next plant or city down the chain. The main exchange of money is to the railroad for shipping.

When you set up a train to deliver a Good like Steel, start it at the destination and then go to the source city and click on it, watching the Steel Mills value as the cars are loaded. It will increase per carload.

I would also point this out: Take pills. Who gets paid for pills? The hospital? Or the nitrate factory? The hospital gets paid for pills. If what you are saying were true, then both the nitrate factory (being the one getting paid for a delivery) would get paid AND the hospital would be paid for accepting those pills-double payment?

So, as I understand this, you own the source of the Nitrates. BNSF comes in with 8 cars and you load them up. You get nothing for this. I own the Chemical Plant. When BNSF delivers the Nitrates to me, I get paid for taking the Nitrates. I make Medicine out of them. CN comes along with 8 cars and I load them up. When CN delivers them to the Hospital, the Hospital gets paid for taking them. Now this leaves one more step. Jancsika is in that Hospital and he gets paid for taking each dose of pills. You get screwed, I get money, the Hospital gets money and Jancsika gets money.

Where do you see money being paid to the Steel Mill for accepting the Coal? Now if you OWN the Steel Mill, you will see two sets of numbers floating up as the cars are unloaded, one for the train itself, which you own in this case, and one for the Steel Mill, which you also own. But if I deliver Coal to your Steel Mill, I receive the money floating off of the cars and you receive the money floating off of the Steel Mill.

If I then load up with Steel, you will receive money for loading them onto my cars, (this may be more than $1,000 since you own it) and I will receive money when I deliver the Steel.

I've messed with all of this over a year ago but wanted to test it out to be sure of what I was saying. (not the numbers, just the actions)

The number in my previous post and the ones above were not made up. I ran the tests.

And how do you get "credit" anywhere in this game? How do you see this?

[snoopy55]

Jancsika, go ahead and try it. Load up the Side to Side and delete the RRT_Event.xml in the map folder. Whichever side you start on, just set up one run of Goods, set the map for fast and sit back. Fish did come up and Fish are not in it.

Once I clicked on the first newspaper I walked away from the game and it kept running. Next to the overview map there is a button you can push that lists all of the announcements. See what is there.

I'll do some more testing by using only 5 or 6 events and making the "Good" a mangle of letters and see what happens.

[darthdroid]

OK, you have missed what I said. Let's start a map. You do not own any Industries.

You start a train at the Coal Mine. No money changes hands unless you want to count the purchase of the Engine, but we'll say you already had that.

The Steel Plant has a value of $150,000. You run 8 loads of Coal to it. Now I'm going to use random number on the part of the value of the Coal. The first car goes for $19,000. This money goes to you, the railroad owner. The second car, $19,000. The third, $19,000. 4th, $18,000. 5th, $18,000. 6th, $18,000. 7th, $17,000 and 8th, $17,000. So, you have gained $145,000, minus whatever maintenance costs there were. If you look at the Steel Mill, it now has a value of $134,000, or $2,000 per carload less than before. (don't know why, it just did) The yearly revenue now reads at $33,XXX. Stop the Coal delivery. The yearly revenue will naturally drop month by month. At two to three years after the last receiving of Coal, the value of the Steel Mill will go up to $141,000.

The Second test I did I restarted the map. I shipped 8 cars of Oil to the Power Plant. It went from $102,000 to $98,000. In two years the value went up to $110, two more years $down to $106,000 and so on as I listed in my other post.

Now to the shipping. I ran Oil to a Refinery, 8 cars of it. The Refinery produced 8 loads of Manufactured Goods. I picked up those 8 loads and shipped them out (I had no destination, but they did leave the Refinery). As they were loaded onto the cars, the value of the Refinery went UP $1,000 for each car. I received nothing for this, the Refinery did.

In all three cases I stopped the shipments of raw materials after the first delivery.

The map used was the SMR Picture Studio. The map was made by Dr Fragg ( http://www.hookedgamers.com/forums/view ... 437#p24437 ) and is a fully random map with nothing edited in it or the original SMR.

Whenever a Good like Steel is delivered, the railroad also receives delivery fees. This is real life, the railroads do not transport stuff for nothing. And a factory does receive money for shipping something to the next plant or city down the chain. The main exchange of money is to the railroad for shipping.

When you set up a train to deliver a Good like Steel, start it at the destination and then go to the source city and click on it, watching the Steel Mills value as the cars are loaded. It will increase per carload.

I would also point this out: Take pills. Who gets paid for pills? The hospital? Or the nitrate factory? The hospital gets paid for pills. If what you are saying were true, then both the nitrate factory (being the one getting paid for a delivery) would get paid AND the hospital would be paid for accepting those pills-double payment?

So, as I understand this, you own the source of the Nitrates. BNSF comes in with 8 cars and you load them up. You get nothing for this. I own the Chemical Plant. When BNSF delivers the Nitrates to me, I get paid for taking the Nitrates. I make Medicine out of them. CN comes along with 8 cars and I load them up. When CN delivers them to the Hospital, the Hospital gets paid for taking them. Now this leaves one more step. Jancsika is in that Hospital and he gets paid for taking each dose of pills. You get screwed, I get money, the Hospital gets money and Jancsika gets money.

Where do you see money being paid to the Steel Mill for accepting the Coal? Now if you OWN the Steel Mill, you will see two sets of numbers floating up as the cars are unloaded, one for the train itself, which you own in this case, and one for the Steel Mill, which you also own. But if I deliver Coal to your Steel Mill, I receive the money floating off of the cars and you receive the money floating off of the Steel Mill.

If I then load up with Steel, you will receive money for loading them onto my cars, (this may be more than $1,000 since you own it) and I will receive money when I deliver the Steel.

I've messed with all of this over a year ago but wanted to test it out to be sure of what I was saying. (not the numbers, just the actions)

The number in my previous post and the ones above were not made up. I ran the tests.

And how do you get "credit" anywhere in this game? How do you see this?

I didn't miss what you said, I'm just sticking to the point of the thread which is revenue of industries, 2 in particular.

I never said you don't get paid for steel, I simply said you don't get paid for steel at the steel mill-I agree that the RAILROAD gets paid, not the steel factory. The auto factory also gets paid.

I completely disagree, the steel mill does NOT make money when it loads up steel and ships it off. It gets paid for PROCESSING THE STEEL.

I also gave valid arguments on how this was proven by me. I pointed out that if what you say is true, that the steel mill should be ahead of the powerplant revenue if the steel mill is shipping steel (thus getting paid for something that the powerplant does not). But that's not true, they make the same money whether you ship the steel or not. That alone proves that you do NOT get paid for shipping steel or delivering steel AT the steel mill, you can only get paid for a shipment of steel in TWO ways:

1/ Payment to the train for shipping it.

2/ Payment to the auto/bomb factory for processing it.

Note that neither payment is to the steel mill. The steel mill only gets paid for what it processes: COAL.
Just set it up and try it, watch the revenue of the powerplant and steel mill stay the same no matter what you do unless you enter in one of the variables that can change it:

1/ Ship oil to the powerplant (steel mill can't use it, so powerplant will make more money than steel mill).

2/ Get either factory to grow (into medium size) before the other one does at which point the bigger one makes almost double (20% vs 35%) due to its ability to process more or whatever, but they both still get 50% of the good-one just uses it better, almost twice better.

This proves what I'm saying is true, so you need to address the proof to argue against it please. I listed other proofs as well, but the powerplant issue really does end the discussion. If what you say is true, they (steel and powerplant) couldn't make the same money unless you're going to somehow argue that the powerplant also benefits equally from steel being shipped and I don't think you would.

Just try it out, you'll see-a factory (and let's stick to factory revenue please as that's the issue here-I dont' care what you make as a railroad-not relevant to the discussion) ONLY makes money off of what it processes, which is the good or goods that it DEMANDS, not that it supplies-it makes zero cash off that.

Again, it's possible but not logical that oil works different, but I'm 100% sure about the coal.

[darthdroid]

And how do you get "credit" anywhere in this game? How do you see this?

Snoopy, I missed this question so I'll answer it here:

There are 3 sizes of factories: Small, Medium, Large.

What makes them grow? Answer: Carloads.

I know Red Knight researched this and found out that once you shipped X number of carloads in or out of a factory, it would grow to Y size.

This is true, he is right, I forget the numbers, perhaps the spreadsheet is in your wiki somewhere-if you copied everything, it should be-go check.

So, now with that in mind you should understand that THIS is the only way that shipping steel makes a difference in the discussion here:

Power plant and Steel Mill BOTH get "credit" for every carload of coal towards that "X" number above. Or maybe they get carload/2 credit (each getting only a carload of credit for every 2 carloads) but either way they get EQUAL credit as they both use (process) that good.

So the following changes when they will upgrade:

1/ Shipping oil into the powerplant - gives it "CREDIT" for carloads that are not received by the steel mill.
2/ Shipping OUT steel gives the steel mill CREDIT for carloads OUT and the powerplant does NOT get credit.

Either of these events mean that one will reach "X" before the other one, and thus upgrade into a Medium sized plant earlier. And it's really the plant getting credit, not you as the plant counts your carloads in or out, mine, anyone's.

Clear?

You also get "credit" for carloads on incentive towns "first to ship 10 cars gets $100k" right? Oh there's credit baby!

[darthdroid]

Oh, and to be more specific about revenue: Yes, if you ship COAL to my steel mill, you get paid for each carload of Coal, I get 20% (in the case of a small steel mill) of each of those carloads paid to my steel mill as I am the one processing YOUR coal.

This line of thought seemed to agree with me: That the steel mill gets paid for COAL not steel. When you see steel unload, the numbers float above the car factory, not the steel mill.... (further proof of what I'm saying)

Industries get paid for the good they process, not the good they ship.

[darthdroid]

OK, you have missed what I said. Let's start a map. You do not own any Industries.

You start a train at the Coal Mine. No money changes hands unless you want to count the purchase of the Engine, but we'll say you already had that.

The Steel Plant has a value of $150,000. You run 8 loads of Coal to it. Now I'm going to use random number on the part of the value of the Coal. The first car goes for $19,000. This money goes to you, the railroad owner. The second car, $19,000. The third, $19,000. 4th, $18,000. 5th, $18,000. 6th, $18,000. 7th, $17,000 and 8th, $17,000. So, you have gained $145,000, minus whatever maintenance costs there were. If you look at the Steel Mill, it now has a value of $134,000, or $2,000 per carload less than before. (don't know why, it just did) The yearly revenue now reads at $33,XXX. Stop the Coal delivery. The yearly revenue will naturally drop month by month. At two to three years after the last receiving of Coal, the value of the Steel Mill will go up to $141,000.

The Second test I did I restarted the map. I shipped 8 cars of Oil to the Power Plant. It went from $102,000 to $98,000. In two years the value went up to $110, two more years $down to $106,000 and so on as I listed in my other post.

Now to the shipping. I ran Oil to a Refinery, 8 cars of it. The Refinery produced 8 loads of Manufactured Goods. I picked up those 8 loads and shipped them out (I had no destination, but they did leave the Refinery). As they were loaded onto the cars, the value of the Refinery went UP $1,000 for each car. I received nothing for this, the Refinery did.

In all three cases I stopped the shipments of raw materials after the first delivery.

The map used was the SMR Picture Studio. The map was made by Dr Fragg ( http://www.hookedgamers.com/forums/view ... 437#p24437 ) and is a fully random map with nothing edited in it or the original SMR.

Whenever a Good like Steel is delivered, the railroad also receives delivery fees. This is real life, the railroads do not transport stuff for nothing. And a factory does receive money for shipping something to the next plant or city down the chain. The main exchange of money is to the railroad for shipping.

When you set up a train to deliver a Good like Steel, start it at the destination and then go to the source city and click on it, watching the Steel Mills value as the cars are loaded. It will increase per carload.

I would also point this out: Take pills. Who gets paid for pills? The hospital? Or the nitrate factory? The hospital gets paid for pills. If what you are saying were true, then both the nitrate factory (being the one getting paid for a delivery) would get paid AND the hospital would be paid for accepting those pills-double payment?

So, as I understand this, you own the source of the Nitrates. BNSF comes in with 8 cars and you load them up. You get nothing for this. I own the Chemical Plant. When BNSF delivers the Nitrates to me, I get paid for taking the Nitrates. I make Medicine out of them. CN comes along with 8 cars and I load them up. When CN delivers them to the Hospital, the Hospital gets paid for taking them. Now this leaves one more step. Jancsika is in that Hospital and he gets paid for taking each dose of pills. You get screwed, I get money, the Hospital gets money and Jancsika gets money.

Where do you see money being paid to the Steel Mill for accepting the Coal? Now if you OWN the Steel Mill, you will see two sets of numbers floating up as the cars are unloaded, one for the train itself, which you own in this case, and one for the Steel Mill, which you also own. But if I deliver Coal to your Steel Mill, I receive the money floating off of the cars and you receive the money floating off of the Steel Mill.

If I then load up with Steel, you will receive money for loading them onto my cars, (this may be more than $1,000 since you own it) and I will receive money when I deliver the Steel.

I've messed with all of this over a year ago but wanted to test it out to be sure of what I was saying. (not the numbers, just the actions)

The number in my previous post and the ones above were not made up. I ran the tests.

And how do you get "credit" anywhere in this game? How do you see this?

Also, it IS the steel mill that gets paid. If you own it, well that money goes to you. But it gets paid either way.. You click on the town and if the good goes in to be processed, it shows REVENUE (YREV) whether it's owned or not. So I think it's logical to say the "steel mill makes $". If I own it, I'd say "My steel mill made B dollars this year" and of course those dollars go into my pocket.

And I never suggested your numbers were made up on the yearly oil revenues or whatever. I simply didn't address it as it's a related issue but not the one we're discussing. You are talking about the VALUE of an industry changing with carloads-I don't disagree. I'd just like to settle the issue of this thread before focusing on other ones. I also need to run some similar tests to comment on your point with some intelligence. I only ran tests on the topic we're debating which is who makes money off steel and more originally: Why would the power plant and steel mill make different amounts at different times. Now I believe both issues are settled in which case we might be ready to discuss your issue (maybe in a different thread though?) unless you want to debate the "who gets paid for steel" issue at further length.

[darthdroid]

One last post: Also I have a question for you snoopy: What the heck are you talking about in the pill example? You said Jancsika gets paid for "taking those pills" (swallowing them I assume as opposed to "taking" them from the train. Could you elaborate on this as I didn't follow you nor do I follow the logic. I also didn't follow what you were talking about with me "owning the source of the nitrates". That one makes no sense-nobody owns a resource, they only own what's in their cars, what they've shipped.

SO I see it more like this:

Bob the Lunatic owns the Nitrate factory (small size)
Snoopy55 owns the hospital (small size)
BN3140 ships nitrates
Wolfwood ships pills

This is how payment would work

BN3140 gets paid for every carload of nitrates delivered, paid on his train.

Bob the Lunatic gets paid the amount BN3140 does x .2, that is Bob gets 20% of the dollar amount that BN does for processing the nitrates at his nitrate factory

Wolfwood then ships the pills Bob made to Snoopy's Hospital. Wolfwood gets paid for every car of pills he delivers to Snoopy's Hospital.

Snoopy55 gets paid 20% of what Wolfwood's dollar amount for consuming the pills in his hospital.


But there are still only 2 payments for pills, just like for any good:

2 Payments, Not 3:

1/ Payment to train for delivering the pills.
2/ Payment to hospital for consuming them..

That's it, so what am I missing? Ie: Jancsika doesn't get a dime in my opinion, Jancsika cannot be "in the hospital". There is only one payment relating to the hospital I think and it shown in my above "2 payments, not 3" explanation. If I'm missing something, please enlighten me as it could change my strategy

[snoopy55]

Your use of the word "credit" is not clearly used. When dealing with money, credit is a monitary issue. They way you are using the word would better be described as "talley" of the deliveries made and shipped. Here is his discription:


Growth
===========================================
Size Increase
============================================
Full carloads needed to cause increases:
____Resources (number of cars loaded)
_______41: Goes from Small to Medium
_______199: Goes from Medium to Large
_______158 : Delta for Medium to Large (199-41)

____Industries (number of carloads dropped off or picked up)
_______51: Goes from Small to Medium
_______244: Goes from Medium to Large
_______193: Delta for Medium to Large (244-51)



All numbers are for resources and industries without any other deliveries or pickups occurring; one resource delivering to one industry. All started at Small size. It has been tested on the following, and assumed true for all resources: Coal/Power, Grain/Food, Livestock/Food, Nitrates/Medicine, Oil/Power, Wood/Furniture.

News Flash: Industries grow according to resources dropped off (input) OR products picked up (output). And so does the city. Example:
___It takes 41 cars for a Village to become a Town, and 51 cars for an industry to go from Small to Medium, right?
___I dropped off 26 cattle cars to a village with a stockyard, which also had a train taking food away. At this point, I killed the cattle train. (10 food cars had been produced by then; a Large livestock was supplying the town.)
___At exactly the point that 15 food cars had been picked up, the Village became a Town (26+15=41).
___And at exactly the point 25 food cars had been picked up, the stockyard went from Small to Medium (26+25=51).

There are two important points to draw from this:
___Make an effort to pick up Output (i.e., unless the place it might go is very far away). It's helping your industry and your city grow. (For the record: Industry and city grow when the output is picked up, not when it reaches its destination. So throwing some stuff away might even be a tactic, especially if it was just going to waste away, anyway.)
___Elsewhere I've talked about delivering 41 loads to a Village to make it grow. Now though, notice that you also have the option of dropping off 21 cars of input, then picking up 20 cars of output. This can be especially important if you only want to use the resource to kickstart a Village into a Town, and don't otherwise want to bring the resource there.


And again, I point you to the Power Plant test I did here: http://www.hookedgamers.com/forums/view ... 967#p40967 Nothing shipped to the Power Plant except the initial 8 cars of Oil, yet it still grows in value by 30% over the next 23 years.

"When you see steel unload, the numbers float above the car factory, not the steel mill.... (further proof of what I'm saying)"
As I said, you missed what I said. When the cars are LOADED at the Steel Mill, the Steel Mills value INCREASES by $1,000 per carload. I did NOT say that the Steel Mill got the money for what the Auto Industry recieved. And in the tests I am doing I am not buying the Industries.

"Oh, and to be more specific about revenue: " First, as I just said, I am not buying the Industries. The original post by SierraElite did not mention that he owned then, so I am assuming that he does not. Second, as to being more specific:

1/ Shipping oil into the powerplant - gives it "CREDIT" for carloads that are not received by the steel mill.
2/ Shipping OUT steel gives the steel mill CREDIT for carloads OUT and the powerplant does NOT get credit.

You have Oil to the Power plant, which in no way coincides with the Steel Mill, and then the Steel Mill shipping Steel which naturally has no effect on the Power Plant.

Follow what I said and watch the Steel Mills value when it loads the Steel onto the cars.

[darthdroid]

Your use of the word "credit" is not clearly used. When dealing with money, credit is a monitary issue. They way you are using the word would better be described as "talley" of the deliveries made and shipped. Here is his discription:


Growth
===========================================
Size Increase
============================================
Full carloads needed to cause increases:
____Resources (number of cars loaded)
_______41: Goes from Small to Medium
_______199: Goes from Medium to Large
_______158 : Delta for Medium to Large (199-41)

____Industries (number of carloads dropped off or picked up)
_______51: Goes from Small to Medium
_______244: Goes from Medium to Large
_______193: Delta for Medium to Large (244-51)



All numbers are for resources and industries without any other deliveries or pickups occurring; one resource delivering to one industry. All started at Small size. It has been tested on the following, and assumed true for all resources: Coal/Power, Grain/Food, Livestock/Food, Nitrates/Medicine, Oil/Power, Wood/Furniture.

News Flash: Industries grow according to resources dropped off (input) OR products picked up (output). And so does the city. Example:
___It takes 41 cars for a Village to become a Town, and 51 cars for an industry to go from Small to Medium, right?
___I dropped off 26 cattle cars to a village with a stockyard, which also had a train taking food away. At this point, I killed the cattle train. (10 food cars had been produced by then; a Large livestock was supplying the town.)
___At exactly the point that 15 food cars had been picked up, the Village became a Town (26+15=41).
___And at exactly the point 25 food cars had been picked up, the stockyard went from Small to Medium (26+25=51).

There are two important points to draw from this:
___Make an effort to pick up Output (i.e., unless the place it might go is very far away). It's helping your industry and your city grow. (For the record: Industry and city grow when the output is picked up, not when it reaches its destination. So throwing some stuff away might even be a tactic, especially if it was just going to waste away, anyway.)
___Elsewhere I've talked about delivering 41 loads to a Village to make it grow. Now though, notice that you also have the option of dropping off 21 cars of input, then picking up 20 cars of output. This can be especially important if you only want to use the resource to kickstart a Village into a Town, and don't otherwise want to bring the resource there.


And again, I point you to the Power Plant test I did here: http://www.hookedgamers.com/forums/view ... 967#p40967 Nothing shipped to the Power Plant except the initial 8 cars of Oil, yet it still grows in value by 30% over the next 23 years.

"When you see steel unload, the numbers float above the car factory, not the steel mill.... (further proof of what I'm saying)"
As I said, you missed what I said. When the cars are LOADED at the Steel Mill, the Steel Mills value INCREASES by $1,000 per carload. I did NOT say that the Steel Mill got the money for what the Auto Industry recieved. And in the tests I am doing I am not buying the Industries.

"Oh, and to be more specific about revenue: " First, as I just said, I am not buying the Industries. The original post by SierraElite did not mention that he owned then, so I am assuming that he does not. Second, as to being more specific:

1/ Shipping oil into the powerplant - gives it "CREDIT" for carloads that are not received by the steel mill.
2/ Shipping OUT steel gives the steel mill CREDIT for carloads OUT and the powerplant does NOT get credit.

You have Oil to the Power plant, which in no way coincides with the Steel Mill, and then the Steel Mill shipping Steel which naturally has no effect on the Power Plant.

Follow what I said and watch the Steel Mills value when it loads the Steel onto the cars.

I already stated that I agree carloads seem to affect the VALUE of the industry-but this whole discussion is about revenue-so I don't think this confusion is mine

Also, I've clearly stated many times that I know output is counted in the credit/talley of carloads. That is the heart of my discussion: that he was shipping steel OUT so that increased the talley for the steel mill faster than that of the powerplant, led to the steel mill increasing first and thus the steel mill making 2/3 of the money in the end (having nearly double the yearly revenue of the powerplant). It seems like you're not really reading my posts-we agree it seems. Thus this indicates one of us is ON topic and one of us is OFF the topic. The topic is REVENUE not value.