Bob,
I played the other day; just against the AI.
Now, I know you can run 16 trains into a station.
However, I've been having problems with 6 trains in (2 X 3) and 2 trains out (2 X 1):
(1) I alternate the inbound platforms to provide more room, but still trying to squeeze 3 tracks into the single platform at the station gives me problems.
(2) I end up with less than a 3-way merge, but instead 2 2-way merges. Just seems to get me in trouble and I end up with stuck trains.
(3) You advise to route your trains to the closest destination to increase their profitability (or in operations speak to reduce queueing delays). Now, suppose I am using early trains. So, I want to keep a big oil or coal resource drained. How do I run 2 or 3 short trains out of the resource to a close city and get those 2 or 3 inbound tracks merged going into the city? Do I single track them or double track them? How to create the merge?
I guess what I really need is some instruction on low level track laying techniques.
Thanks.
Thanks Darthdroid
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darthdroid
- Posts: 368
- Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:42 am
Re: Thanks Darthdroid
Hi Mark,
I don't 100% follow the problem except that you are having difficulty with track sharing.
So let's try to simplify it and hopefully it will resolve the issue. Also, the level of the engines is irrelevant, it may cause waiting to increase, but not too much to cause concern or profit loss, etc.
Let's cover the base rules and hopefully that will sort this out.
First. Let's say you have a station/terminal.
Second, let's assume you've put 4 TINY entry tracks in front of it so you're ready to start routing into station.
And by tiny, I mean tiny, as in just enough to create a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th entry, like 2mm on the screen, k? Don't do long double tracks, that will complicate this, just do tiny tiny pieces (2mm) for all 4 ok?
That being said, I would also argue that you should really NEVER have 2 routes to the SAME resource, but if you wish to that is fine and it doesn't change our routing needs/tricks. One proper engine should be enough to keep that mine/field/whatever below 3 units at all times after the first few runs.
Ok, so let's start with the OUTBOUND trains. I assume that you've set up the station to face the destination city (where you're shipping goods TO). So I would argue let's keep it simple and have 2 routes to that destination city. Do this by using the 2 middle tracks of the 4 station entry tracks we began with. Lay the first one to the destination city, making sure it's FLAT (no grade). Lay the depot at the destination city. Now starting from the other middle track at original city's station, double track all the way to the new depot, laying your 2nd route. Both routes should be fine and work properly, but let's not worry about laying any trains yet.
Now this leaves 2 empty entry tracks at original station, the outside ones. We could still use the outbound tracks but lets leave them alone perhaps in this example and only trackshare on our 2 outside ones. Hope you're following all this
.
So let's say I have 3 coal mines to go to (assuming say a steel factory in original city or even plans to BUILD a steel factory. Now to help you visualize, again on each side of our 2 outbound rails, we have a 2mm entry track that is empty, waiting for track, right?
Let's call this tiny piece of track on one side "X" and the one on the other side "Y"...again X=the tiny piece of entry track at the station we haven't used yet on one side, and Y the same meaning on the OTHER side (other side of the 2 outbound tracks).
You'll see why I define it like this in a minute. Now when I click lay track and hover cursor over X facing the coal mines, it turns green on the end right? So I click and stretch to the 1st coal mine (making sure its flat or UPhill to the coal mine of course) and click to lay that whole track. Then add annex of course.
Now for #2, lets go BACK to X, pretend the track we just laid is NOT there. Find your green arrow again at X, it will appear. In some cases if it does not appear, just go slightly up the previously laid track til you get a yellow arrow (as close to station as possible). WHichever you get, yellow or green, go ahead and click, now stretch that track to coal mine #2. Lay it, lay annex..
Now you should have a very sharp V shape into the station between the 2 coal tracks. They should only share a tiny piece of track at or very near station if you followed these instructions right.
So now let's lay #3. #3 and those potentially after are not as perfect as the first 2. You can't get the green arrow anymore. So you do the same thing I said for if you don't get green arrow on #2. Let's say #3 is on the very outside, so I choose the coal track I have that is on the outside, click way down near the join point (of coal track #1 and #2, ie very close to the bottom of the V. Essentially trying to do the same thing as before, which is making sure they barely share any track. I glide mouse over this outside track looking for that point closest to the join point where it gives a yellow arrow, find it, click and make sure it's laying ok, if so, stretch to coal mine #3 and etc. Let's say it's not quite right, go ahead and put in a tiny turn down by the join point to make it branch off, then perhaps another tiny turn now aimed at coal mine #3 to get straight for 95% of this track. This part is the most likely to confuse you, but if you read carefully I think the instructions are worthy of working. Now you have all 3 into one entry track, you can lay the trains as you like.
Clearly you can do the same on the OTHER side, on Y, as we did here on X. This would give us 8 trains and waiting should be minimal.
Now again, NOTE we want shared track to essentially be a V of some sort, we can stretch that V to an L ie from 90 degrees to say 5 degrees. BUT do not, DO NOT share track the OTHER way. By other way I mean don't stretch track from the entry point West, and then stretch from the SAME entry track EAST. We NEVER want them sharing where they enter station facing eachother. They should converge, they should enter station where both are heading west or both are heading north or whatever, heading in from same direction. This mistake is what costs most people serious routing problems. So say you want to share but you have stuff in ALL directions around city, that's fine, take our example above, let's assume those 3 coal mines were north. But lets say we have 3 corn fields south. Use that Y entry track to go the OTHER way (south) and all 3 from Y go south, essentially now making a V with an extra arm. These "double Vs" would look essentially the same, except one is upside down, (Y) and one is right side up (X). and then the 2 in the middle have no sharing....but they COULD of course.
But we only wanna share the outbound tracks if absolutely necessary as we don't want to slow down the big $ at all.
If you cannot follow this, make a time with me to get online together and I can demonstrate what we're doing or correct your problem in less than 5 minutes I bet, but I hope these instructions solve your problem
I don't 100% follow the problem except that you are having difficulty with track sharing.
So let's try to simplify it and hopefully it will resolve the issue. Also, the level of the engines is irrelevant, it may cause waiting to increase, but not too much to cause concern or profit loss, etc.
Let's cover the base rules and hopefully that will sort this out.
First. Let's say you have a station/terminal.
Second, let's assume you've put 4 TINY entry tracks in front of it so you're ready to start routing into station.
And by tiny, I mean tiny, as in just enough to create a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th entry, like 2mm on the screen, k? Don't do long double tracks, that will complicate this, just do tiny tiny pieces (2mm) for all 4 ok?
That being said, I would also argue that you should really NEVER have 2 routes to the SAME resource, but if you wish to that is fine and it doesn't change our routing needs/tricks. One proper engine should be enough to keep that mine/field/whatever below 3 units at all times after the first few runs.
Ok, so let's start with the OUTBOUND trains. I assume that you've set up the station to face the destination city (where you're shipping goods TO). So I would argue let's keep it simple and have 2 routes to that destination city. Do this by using the 2 middle tracks of the 4 station entry tracks we began with. Lay the first one to the destination city, making sure it's FLAT (no grade). Lay the depot at the destination city. Now starting from the other middle track at original city's station, double track all the way to the new depot, laying your 2nd route. Both routes should be fine and work properly, but let's not worry about laying any trains yet.
Now this leaves 2 empty entry tracks at original station, the outside ones. We could still use the outbound tracks but lets leave them alone perhaps in this example and only trackshare on our 2 outside ones. Hope you're following all this
.So let's say I have 3 coal mines to go to (assuming say a steel factory in original city or even plans to BUILD a steel factory. Now to help you visualize, again on each side of our 2 outbound rails, we have a 2mm entry track that is empty, waiting for track, right?
Let's call this tiny piece of track on one side "X" and the one on the other side "Y"...again X=the tiny piece of entry track at the station we haven't used yet on one side, and Y the same meaning on the OTHER side (other side of the 2 outbound tracks).
You'll see why I define it like this in a minute. Now when I click lay track and hover cursor over X facing the coal mines, it turns green on the end right? So I click and stretch to the 1st coal mine (making sure its flat or UPhill to the coal mine of course) and click to lay that whole track. Then add annex of course.
Now for #2, lets go BACK to X, pretend the track we just laid is NOT there. Find your green arrow again at X, it will appear. In some cases if it does not appear, just go slightly up the previously laid track til you get a yellow arrow (as close to station as possible). WHichever you get, yellow or green, go ahead and click, now stretch that track to coal mine #2. Lay it, lay annex..
Now you should have a very sharp V shape into the station between the 2 coal tracks. They should only share a tiny piece of track at or very near station if you followed these instructions right.
So now let's lay #3. #3 and those potentially after are not as perfect as the first 2. You can't get the green arrow anymore. So you do the same thing I said for if you don't get green arrow on #2. Let's say #3 is on the very outside, so I choose the coal track I have that is on the outside, click way down near the join point (of coal track #1 and #2, ie very close to the bottom of the V. Essentially trying to do the same thing as before, which is making sure they barely share any track. I glide mouse over this outside track looking for that point closest to the join point where it gives a yellow arrow, find it, click and make sure it's laying ok, if so, stretch to coal mine #3 and etc. Let's say it's not quite right, go ahead and put in a tiny turn down by the join point to make it branch off, then perhaps another tiny turn now aimed at coal mine #3 to get straight for 95% of this track. This part is the most likely to confuse you, but if you read carefully I think the instructions are worthy of working. Now you have all 3 into one entry track, you can lay the trains as you like.
Clearly you can do the same on the OTHER side, on Y, as we did here on X. This would give us 8 trains and waiting should be minimal.
Now again, NOTE we want shared track to essentially be a V of some sort, we can stretch that V to an L ie from 90 degrees to say 5 degrees. BUT do not, DO NOT share track the OTHER way. By other way I mean don't stretch track from the entry point West, and then stretch from the SAME entry track EAST. We NEVER want them sharing where they enter station facing eachother. They should converge, they should enter station where both are heading west or both are heading north or whatever, heading in from same direction. This mistake is what costs most people serious routing problems. So say you want to share but you have stuff in ALL directions around city, that's fine, take our example above, let's assume those 3 coal mines were north. But lets say we have 3 corn fields south. Use that Y entry track to go the OTHER way (south) and all 3 from Y go south, essentially now making a V with an extra arm. These "double Vs" would look essentially the same, except one is upside down, (Y) and one is right side up (X). and then the 2 in the middle have no sharing....but they COULD of course.
But we only wanna share the outbound tracks if absolutely necessary as we don't want to slow down the big $ at all.
If you cannot follow this, make a time with me to get online together and I can demonstrate what we're doing or correct your problem in less than 5 minutes I bet, but I hope these instructions solve your problem
-Bob the Lunatic
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darthdroid
- Posts: 368
- Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:42 am
Re: Thanks Darthdroid
Oh,
Also, if you DO, for whatever reason insist on having 2 routes to the same resource, this is how I would do it. Yes, I would lay the first route, then double track from the annex (at coal mine in this example) all the way down to very near the station. So it's not yet connected. Then I would do the green arrow trick to just make a new track jut slightly out, this is a tiny piece mind you (4-5mm) and then make it sharply turn to face the double track (ie make it parallel to original track) then lay it up to the waiting double track, now both are connected and we essentially have 2 very long double tracks up to station and then a very tiny v right at the entry (X).
Also, if you DO, for whatever reason insist on having 2 routes to the same resource, this is how I would do it. Yes, I would lay the first route, then double track from the annex (at coal mine in this example) all the way down to very near the station. So it's not yet connected. Then I would do the green arrow trick to just make a new track jut slightly out, this is a tiny piece mind you (4-5mm) and then make it sharply turn to face the double track (ie make it parallel to original track) then lay it up to the waiting double track, now both are connected and we essentially have 2 very long double tracks up to station and then a very tiny v right at the entry (X).
-Bob the Lunatic
Re: Thanks Darthdroid
Many thanks, Bob, for your time. I will go through your notes and see if I can put these techniques into practice. No doubt, I am clumsy player, since I don't play much.
Re: Thanks Darthdroid
Bob,
I haven't really been playing SMR. However, I have played RTD (Railroad Tycoon Deluxe) and I find your ideas quite applicable.
From a post, I made at www.wargamer.com.
Have you ever played RT3, by the way?
Take care.
I haven't really been playing SMR. However, I have played RTD (Railroad Tycoon Deluxe) and I find your ideas quite applicable.
From a post, I made at www.wargamer.com.
Have you ever played RT3, by the way?
Take care.
Thanks.
My skill is really improving in two key areas:
(1) Building a profitable RR. I can take a very small area and make it very profitable. The secret is not just using cities, but exploit resources. If you have a lot of resources, but no industry (or a very distant one), then build an industry. Avoid a lot of traffic on your tracks. Have many feeder lines of length feeding into a very short segment into a city with double track. I learned this from a guy who plays SMR. In way all, RR games are games of optimizing queueing systems. So, his tips do well with RTD.
(2) Timing on take overs. You need a strong economic engine to do take overs and you need a networth ratio of maybe 3-4:1. All take overs result in massive bond debt. You have to have the profits to put yourself and your target out of debt without the share holders kicking you out. The AI usually achieves a take over against the player at 1:1 networth ratios, but that is because it wins instantly as soon as it hold more than 50% equity. It does not need to survive and pay down the debt, but you do.
Other recent insights:
(3) Acquire a RR and grow it as a "Great Wall" between you and the rest. Once done, rate wars effectively can be ignored for the rest of the game.
(4) Investing in your own stock and RRs you control at only 60% generally pays well. Once you are have turned the corner of guaranteed survival, then stock re-investment has a compounding effect on your networth. Operations generated increased revenue. Revenue boosts share price. Holding shares further boosts profits.
I'll probably wait until I can consistently win at Mogul and then move up to Tycoon (100% difficulty).
I am curious about the queueing theory approach which I am using on RTD and works for this guy, "Bob- The Lunatic", who gave me tips for SMR. Bob's tips involve keeping runs very short wherever possible, minimizing congestion, thus 'packet' collisions. I wonder about RT3. RT3 has a very different RR economic engine. Prices on goods vary based on distance. This is especially true with passengers/mail. So, it is not clear that optimal revenue is a function of minimum packet propagation. The opposite might well be true or there might be some formulaic break even point based on distance, load, and average speed.
Of course, a major revenue source in RT3 is business ownership. The trick is to buy businesses on the leading edge of rail expansion where they are initially worthless and as the rails grow, they become very profitable. You can even profit off of AI expansion like this. Of course, then the RRing aspect is greatly diminished. Thus, I think RTD's model is much better. You can build industries, but you make nothing from them. You only gain by the fact that they serve as consumers of cargo which you can deliver for a profit. Thus, RRing remains the central game.
Re: Thanks Darthdroid
Hi! I need more explanations about 16 trains in one station. In the pictures
http://www.hookedgamers.com/gamewiki/Si ... Strategies
I count only 8 distinct tracks connecting in the station of Indianapolis. Thus only 8 trains can be ordered to go to Indianapolis if we try to keep only one train on a single track. Does the station in the pictures serve more then 8 trains?
http://www.hookedgamers.com/gamewiki/Si ... Strategies
I count only 8 distinct tracks connecting in the station of Indianapolis. Thus only 8 trains can be ordered to go to Indianapolis if we try to keep only one train on a single track. Does the station in the pictures serve more then 8 trains?
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darthdroid
- Posts: 368
- Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:42 am
Re: Thanks Darthdroid
AAjusLTU wrote:Hi! I need more explanations about 16 trains in one station. In the pictures
http://www.hookedgamers.com/gamewiki/Si ... Strategies
I count only 8 distinct tracks connecting in the station of Indianapolis. Thus only 8 trains can be ordered to go to Indianapolis if we try to keep only one train on a single track. Does the station in the pictures serve more then 8 trains?
I don't see the picture there, I believe I removed it a while back. Either way, if you do see a picture with 8 tracks, just double the idea. ie you'd have perhaps 4 tracks sharing each entry point. Sharing it the same way 2 do. So instead of each track being one "Y" it would be a Y with 4 heads, not just 2. However, I would argue it would be more profitable to have 6 tracks sharing 2 of the entry points (totaling 12) and then the middle tracks could each share with a very distant resource, thus each of them serving 2 trains (totaling 16). These middle trains are your outbound trains so should share as little as possible as they are the big money trains. Hope that helps clarify.
-Bob the Lunatic