Firaxis -- Let us hold cargo at stations

[snoopy55]

Tijer - the Port I was 'refering' to is already in existance, except not for those reasons. Someone wanted to be able to have the Victory Conditions(VC) able to say 'Ship 100 carloads of **** to Port Seaside'. But it couldn't because the Port was an Annex. I worked out an edited bit of graphics and some XML programing and got a 'Port' that the mapper can put 'outside' of a city and still be able to use in the VC. Using a regular City would cause growth and lots of buildings to be added. The way I set it up, it cannot grow, and no other city can grow into it. Lots of headaches and weeks of thought, it finally came to me after I had layed there and warmed the bed...... bummer. Lowell mentioned using it in his next map, but don't quote me on that.
One problem with this is that it needs to be made non-auctionable. It's a Port and goods come and go for multiple railroads. A shipping company may own it.
It can be set up to do 'ship it out', 'ship it in' and/or 'ship it in for so many ship it outs'.
A version could also be done as a Border Exchange.

[Tijer]

Snoopy - I understand the concept of the port that you designed and why. May I say that it is very good work. What I am referring to is a port, or what actually is a private warehouse. The specs as I understand them would be a location that goods could be stored to be moved further across the map. The complaint from Warll is that you get paid twice for delivering the same items. Essentially what Warll is saying is that you are cheating, "Getting paid twice for one delivery". I would like to state that the more the good is spread across the map the lower the price paid for delivery. What I am asking is " Is there a unit from another game that has the ability to warehouse goods where payment is not received for delivery at the warehouse?"

The thought process is why rack your brain trying to develop a unit like you did with the port when the item already exist in another game using the same game engine. Like for instance all be it not the same game engine but a similar one is Port Royal 2. In this game once you get your own town you have a storage warehouse with unlimited space. The only thing that is a downside is that if you hoard goods the a plague of rats destroys between 20% and 30% of your stock. After all hoarding something like Arms or Autos should cost you something, since hoarding would drive up the price of the good. In the setting that this game takes place, the government would tax you or the Mafia would steal it. Something like that. I am just trying to make as many people happy as possible, since making them all happy is illegal in all states except Nevada.

On another item in a search of the CivFanatics page I did find a dock with and without ships that would probably work in SMR. Currently I am still working on it to get it to expand as the port expands. They do have some great artist over there, something that we could use some help with.

[snoopy55]

No, I understand what this is all about. As I see it, the game is not set up to do that. As to double costs, a way can be set up to remove all if not most of that. you would want some sort of trasnport cost. When I worked out Side to Sdie DSC I only allowed $1000 to $2000 for the delivery of the containers. If you set your warehouse to accept say Food as an input with a 1 for 2 output of DSC Food, and added DSC Food anywhere Food was accepted, and dropped the $s to 0 (or as close as the game allows) it should work.

It all runs into a problem of developing a Industry that accepts Goods, but gives you nothing for the delivery. You could try a 'pay for delivery and charge for shipping', but then, aside from Victory conditions, why continue it. Myself, I wanted a Freight Yard set up to drop off and pick up cars, which is another version of what you have in mind. It would have to have limited space, certain goods like perishables would have to move within a certain time, and it would need a growth ability. If you could create it at a cost where ever you wanted one, and the growth would cost you, along with upkeep, AND the compitition couldn't touch it, it would almost be perfect.

[Tijer]

Snoopy - Based on the details that you are stating That would be a depot not an industry. Currently, the game will let you attempt to place a depot anywhere along your tracks, but it will only allow you to build a depot inside a green circle. There must be an script that keeps you from building anywhere. Once pinpointed, that script could be altered to allow a Freight Yard at any location where say 4 sets of rails exist, like a oversize siding. Since all the rails belong to one person, no need to worry about getting pilfered. I think it is time to examine everything about Depots and laying track. As for growing the item, that would be done by a grow KFM file just like everything else that expands. Cities and industry KFM's have a grow KFM. First thing is to see what is written to keep us from building outside the green circle.

[snoopy55]

By Industry I was speaking of terms used in XML construction of mods.

As to a depot, your wording states that you can build one anywhere along your tracks, but you can only build it inside a green circle. A mapper decides where those green circles go when he places an Annex or a City.

So we come to one of two ways to go about this, both of which require the Engine for the game, and those are 1)Mapper sets possible places for Freight Yards,which once accessed, dispose of the green circle so the AI cannot access them or 2) allow a player, using a certain key or place to click, can create his own Yard which, again, the AI cannot touch.

Either way, and about any other way, requires the Engine, and since we will probally never get that, or not soon anyway, we're kinda mute on this subject of 'Don't touch my stash!'.

[Tijer]

If the green disk where small enough to be covered over by the track then the AI would not be able to set up shop on your homestead. I also do not believe that they would comprehend the dynamics a side from ripping it off.

In reference to ever receiving the script or the engine, forget that. Do you believe that they want the game fixed? Dude, you need to share that stuff. Fireaxes, Take Two and Sid know they shipped junk. As some have mentioned in this forum under normal conditions they would have been sued, the only reason they have not is because it sold for so little and then they strung us out on two patches that did very little, but it was long enough for the warranty to expire.

[Lowell]

The problem that I see coming in this is once the city has grown to demand the goods it will not be able to get them since the goods are being moved further down the line.

I have been using distribution centers in-city and the cities they are in get their goods just fine and grow fastest. The distribution centers work fine. I also have a Federal Treasury on the Georgia map that takes Gold and gives Gold...although the government only gives 60% back as they keep 40. Works great.

Cities as I have said can be their own "distribution center" without an industry at all. Just set them to give the same good back. Easy stuff.

[Tijer]

Just so you understand Lowell that is not what this discussion was directly about. The scope was to have a structure that a player could place anywhere on the map and use as a private warehouse. Where the player would store material to move across the map. The argument posed by Warll was that it is cheating to drop something off at a particular station to then move the stuff to a third location. The reason that Warll stated was that you get paid twice for the delivery. First to the warehouse and then to the destination.

In my statement what I am stating is that with the item being moved across the map and the railroad collecting two delivery charges, who would ship to the next town over unless you ship from the private warehouse, again collecting 2 delivery charges.

[snoopy55]

One way a distribution Center could be done in like I did in Side to Side DSC. Goods are dropped off, and then picked up in Container Cars. The delivery fee for those could be dropped to 500 or 1000 lowest and 2000 highest. The Containers are then dropped off at the normal plce they are needed by just adding DCS_(Good) to the input. It does work. I used to carloads for one Container.

[Lowell]

Tijer...I use the distribution/transfer centers out of the cities as well. I prefer them to be not in city. You don't make as much money that way. All rail yards have distribution centers. They transfer goods from train to train and train to truck.

Say I let my Metropolis sized cities take and give food. Drop off eight cars of food.
<Resource>
<Input>Food</Input>
<Output>Food</Output>
<InputOutputRatio>0.330000</InputOutputRatio>
<MaxStorage>6.000000</MaxStorage>
</Resource>
Now...I get paid when I deliver the first set of cars to city A. Then city B wants food...that city picks up it's food from city A. City B pays for the food cars it has taken.

I see no difference between that scenario and city B going and getting it's food and paying for it somewhere else. The distribution centers are no different. Except when they are inside a city and made an industry they can make double money...but that is just as far as the game goes. ...and yes...this is the same subject.

[Tijer]

No Sir it is not. The private warehouse allows for hoarding the commodity, thus driving up prices for that commodity. Unlike SMPirates, SMR uses one pricing across the map, instead of different prices in each city. So long as there is a charge collected at the warehouse, the player can continue to fill it.

Lowell
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:34 pm Post subject:
Tijer...I use the distribution/transfer centers out of the cities as well. I prefer them to be not in city. You don't make as much money that way.

Of course you do not make as much money, because you are not collecting double duty. The second issue that comes up is the AI(s) are no longer a factor. This is proven by the victory conditions in some of the maps. 1500+ carloads in 20 years, would never happen unless the AI is not a factor. Try that as a condition in multi player and it will never happen.

I do realize that all railroads have distribution centers, but the difference is that, there are also things in place to stop hoarding. In SMR that does not exist. Remember there are to principles involved in the game one is to ship supplies, and the second is to keep those supplies form the competition. So long as the AI(s) can not rationalize the concept of the distribution centers then the use of them constitutes cheating. In single player the concept is to beat the AI(s) as well as the victory conditions. If the AI(s) only connect to regular cities and never connect to the Distribution centers, or in the case of the Private warehouse, never build their own then that is also cheating since you are only playing against the victory conditions and you will be able to by out the AI(s) in no time.

So far, I have yet to see where a map has been posted showing the all the victory conditions met and the AI(s) playing. Just the player only against the victory conditions. The fact is that any area that has only one railroad has a owner that is a billionaire. Just like the case of the B&O railroad and Washington DC. So long as the B&O was the only rail line they provides service as they felt and charged what they wanted. Once the Pennsey showed up all things changed. By the time Union Station was built the B&O was owned by the Pennsey. This is no different here.

I guess what I am getting at is the scope of SMR is to beat the Competition and the Victory conditions to win, at least to me. Other then that you are just playing with yourself.

[CeeBee51]

I guess what I am getting at is the scope of SMR is to beat the Competition and the Victory conditions to win, at least to me. Other then that you are just playing with yourself.

No AI's is usually the way I play. Guess I'm just wierd

[Lowell]

In the case of multi player you shouldn't use distribution centers. The idea only works if you want a single player map. Sort-of a digital model railroad set.

I do plan on making a few multiplayer maps, but the setup must be different as you have noted.

EDIT// I guess I haven't played it any other way other than Single player, and oversized maps at that...sorry.

(these cities are set as we talked about on the previous post...give and take)
Well let me ask this then...what about the scenario where you take eight cars from city A-cannery to city B-say a large size city set for give/take. Then city C makes something that city B wants as well as A. So you take eight cars of food to city B. Going back city A takes a car or two of city C's product while leaving the food at B. City B only needs a car or two of food at a time cycle so he has extra. City C takes back food from B after leaving it's good and the cycle goes on.

So the food from A to B gets charged once.
Then B to C gets changed once.
...then the same for the products that B and C makes...
Or am I missing something? I do want to get it straight as I am going to make a couple multilayer maps. Right now I don't even list the AI Players on my scenario's lists yet, it just isn't fit for maps over say a size 16...the AI runs out of money. But wouldn't it be the same money for city C to buy it's car or two of food from city B's extra? Or is it somehow charged as double somewhere that I haven't noticed?

[Tijer]

In the first reference to the DC in multi player, why not let them fight for control. Since everyone knows the value of the DC the game is fair. As we all know the rail lines around it will be a mess, if everyone connects. Like in the real world the competitors would have to work together to cut one another's throat. If it where not for this fact, we would never be able to ship supplies from one part of the country to the other. Or for that matter have communications or Air travel.

If I understand your scenario correctly then that scenario does not exist in SMR. As it has been posted many times before, food from the cannery in city A will get dumped at city B. All of it, even if city B only needs 1 car load, all gets dumped. Then when the train goes to city C and loads Manufactured goods, it does not have food to deliver since it dumped all of it at City B. With the goods picked up at city C the train flips and returns to city B. At city B it will dump the entire load from city C and then proceed to city A again with empty cars to restart the loop all over. Any questions? Or did I miss something, because I do not see an opportunity to double charge. If I am wrong in this, I am sure one of the resident authorities will correct me.

[Lowell]

The game doesn't need a distribution center...all you need do is set your towns to take and give...it won't throw anything out if you set it up right.

<ProductionModifiers>
<Resource>
<Input>Food</Input>
<Output>Food</Output>
<InputOutputRatio>1.000000</InputOutputRatio>
<MaxStorage>12.000000</MaxStorage>
</Resource>

Now...drop off eight cars to this city and watch what happens. I've tested it and it works. Any city level can do this. I reserve it for the largest sizes. I don't have that map published but it works. Every city that reaches a certian level can take and give each good that all demand, in this way. Now, I don't like it, I prefer the distribution center rather than every city when big being one. But when set this way, they don't throw out anything.