Buildup and Build_up A La Fireaxis style.

[Tijer]

Lowell - The fact is that Fireaxis DID use 2 different formats. Proof of this is provided by looking at the RRT_Industries.XML As found in the Program Files, ...Assets/XML.


<!-- Industries -->
<Industries>
<RRTIndustry>
<szName>Food Plant</szName>
<szModel>FoodPlant.kfm</szModel>

<szGrowKFM>FoodPlant_BuildUp.kfm</szGrowKFM>

<szTerrainmap/>
<fScale>1</fScale>
<bIsCoastal>0</bIsCoastal>
<bIsMountainous>0</bIsMountainous>
<bInCity>1</bInCity>
<iCost>500000</iCost>
<Production>
<!--1 grain produces 1 food-->
<Resource>
<Input>Grain</Input>
<Output>Food</Output>
<InputOutputRatio>1.0</InputOutputRatio>
</Resource>
</Production>
<szAuctionImage>Industry_Food_Plant.dds</szAuctionImage>
<szReportImage>Report_Industry_Food_Plant.dds</szReportImage>
<szIcon>
<szFile>icon_foodplant_32.tga</szFile>
</szIcon>
</RRTIndustry>
<RRTIndustry>
<szName>Grain Farm</szName>
<szModel>Grain_Elevator.kfm</szModel>

<szGrowKFM>Grain_Elevator_Build_Up.kfm</szGrowKFM>


<szTerrainmap>TerrainMap_GrainElevator.tga</szTerrainmap>
<fScale>1.0</fScale>
<bIsCoastal>0</bIsCoastal>
<bIsMountainous>0</bIsMountainous>
<bHasFields>1</bHasFields>
<bInCity>0</bInCity>
<iCost>-1</iCost>
<Production>
<!--Produces 1 grain-->
<Resource>
<Input>None</Input>
<Output>Grain</Output>
<InputOutputRatio>1.0</InputOutputRatio>
</Resource>
</Production>
<DisplayNames>
<szDisplayName>The @CITY Grain Farms</szDisplayName>
<szDisplayName>@CITY Feed Co.</szDisplayName>
<szDisplayName>@CITY Grain Company</szDisplayName>
<szDisplayName>@CITY Seed and Grain</szDisplayName>
<szDisplayName>@CITY Mills, Ltd.</szDisplayName>
</DisplayNames>
<szIcon>
<szFile>icon_wine_32.tga</szFile>
</szIcon>
</RRTIndustry>

As you can see the the format is different. These where installed from the SMR Disk and not altered by SMRI or any other installer. So please stop running down other forum members for their hard work. However, good luck with the job interview with 2K and Fireaxis while they are in negotiations with EA.

[Lowell]

...yes they did...but the Modder was the one that mixed them up. I have seen the Build_Up and BuildUp set both ways, but when a modder makes something new from a default game model that ran fine then is broken after the edits....

I fixed the trouble that ended up on several maps and had been broken for some time...took me ten minutes to see and fix.

Modders need to test play their maps and new stuff...that's why I take so long on my new productions. There is sooo much new stuff that every tick needs run through first.

In this case...the map maker made and posted a map that crashed, then before fixing the broken map...a new version two was released...that also had the same trouble and crashed. To pour salt on the wound a third version of this map was released and low and behold it too had the very trouble the others had and crashed.

It was at that time I stepped in and fixed the trouble that was crashing out all those maps. It took just a few to see and fix it.

New industries as I have said many times the map maker can test right there in the editor when he/she places them down. Just right click on them and tell them to grow, if it has an animation set of files it will grow there right away or if the modder has missed something it will crash out the editor. Then go back and read through everything real fine.

Simple...and...play test through all the way all maps...and that means giving the map to someone else and letting them play it, not just the map maker.

Last...why did you stick this away somewhere and not reply to the thread to where this conversation came from? When posting a reply you should always reply to threads on the thread where they came from...not start a new thread somewhere to where no one on earth are going to know what you are talking about...unless that was the intention.

EDIT// The key is when renaming things...read through everything real close and test it first. The grain elevator and mine are much different in their animation and other files than other industries. They have to be edited in a certian way. The mine is the worse...as I made a copper mine for a new map and getting everything edited correctly is a big deal and took some time.

So the key is test before release. I believe this cotton building was on older maps and was never addressed. An underscore or not...it's mispelled. Who cares if the builders used one here and not one there...as you copy/rename stuff read what is supplied to you in the form of script, if you change it you better change it all the way through. The underscore was only the first thing I saw visually right off...all of the actions, about twelve I believe...all needed renamed from the grain field to cotton whatever. Plus a couple other things. So the underscore is just spelling and wasn't the real/whole problem.

I'm sure this would do good to move this thread's posts back to where they belong as new information has now been added.

[Tijer]

...yes they did...but the Modder was the one that mixed them up. I have seen the Build_Up and BuildUp set both ways, but when a modder makes something new from a default game model that ran fine then is broken after the edits....

No Lowell they did not. The example in post one of this thread is from the program file side of the game and not the My Games side of the game. Second no one has created a mod for the food plant or the grain elevator. Mods have been made from those items but not mods for those items. So where did the the underscore come from. Both are stock items and not mods. As a matter of fact in the stock version of the industry XML Build up is written as Buildup, BuildUp, Build_Up and Build_up. I know that these are the stock XML since I do not have any games loaded on my computer except for the games loaded from the Railroads disk.

I fixed the trouble that ended up on several maps and had been broken for some time...took me ten minutes to see and fix.

Modders need to test play their maps and new stuff...that's why I take so long on my new productions. There is sooo much new stuff that every tick needs run through first.

What you fixed was a mod and not a stock item, and according to the information on the forum that repair took you a day and a half. I agree that maps need to be play tested before they are released. I guess you learned that with Florida Gold. You have been working on that map for over a year and the map is still not ready.

In this case...the map maker made and posted a map that crashed, then before fixing the broken map...a new version two was released...that also had the same trouble and crashed. To pour salt on the wound a third version of this map was released and low and behold it too had the very trouble the others had and crashed.

It was at that time I stepped in and fixed the trouble that was crashing out all those maps. It took just a few to see and fix it.

The maps that you are referring to are Rift Valley and Rift Valley 2. Both downloads have been deleted by the mapper. What ever you did to repair Rift 3 never fixed Rift 1 and 2. In looking at the xml from Middle East and the Snoopy Brown Cotton Mill, the XMLs are the same.

New industries as I have said many times the map maker can test right there in the editor when he/she places them down. Just right click on them and tell them to grow, if it has an animation set of files it will grow there right away or if the modder has missed something it will crash out the editor. Then go back and read through everything real fine.

Simple...and...play test through all the way all maps...and that means giving the map to someone else and letting them play it, not just the map maker.

Well until you had mentioned the ability to grow an industry in the Editor no one had ever thought of it. However, you have also stated that mods can not be added to the editor, so how do you propose to grow something in the editor that you yourself state can not be added.

Last...why did you stick this away somewhere and not reply to the thread to where this conversation came from? When posting a reply you should always reply to threads on the thread where they came from...not start a new thread somewhere to where no one on earth are going to know what you are talking about...unless that was the intention.

I Moved the discussion to this location since the context of it have nothing to do with the subject of the previous thread. Also I would like to return your attention to your complaint of having people posting items not directly relevant to the subject. Since I agree with this concept, I relocated the issue here. I noticed that you had no problem locating the discussion, so what is the problem.

EDIT// The key is when renaming things...read through everything real close and test it first. The grain elevator and mine are much different in their animation and other files than other industries. They have to be edited in a certian way. The mine is the worse...as I made a copper mine for a new map and getting everything edited correctly is a big deal and took some time.

So the key is test before release. I believe this cotton building was on older maps and was never addressed. An underscore or not...it's mispelled. Who cares if the builders used one here and not one there...as you copy/rename stuff read what is supplied to you in the form of script, if you change it you better change it all the way through. The underscore was only the first thing I saw visually right off...all of the actions, about twelve I believe...all needed renamed from the grain field to cotton whatever. Plus a couple other things. So the underscore is just spelling and wasn't the real/whole problem.

I'm sure this would do good to move this thread's posts back to where they belong as new information has now been added.

The point of this discussion is that Fireaxis used 4 different names for the same procedure. You have stated that SMRI changed the stock items in the XML by typographical errors. Based on your assertion better then 3/4 of the stock items would have crashed. Next you will state that instead of fixing the Typos, the SMRI people went ahead and changed the wording on the build up to get the stock items to work. To that I say Bull Corn. Fireaxis was inconsistent in the tagging of their items, since SMRI never altered the Program Files side of the game.

[Lowell]

First off...fixing the other two maps was of no concern to me. I fixed his trouble with a cotton field elevator...as I also had one made. So what they got back was some of my cotton elevator as mine was the same but brown, it was the same building.

As I said, the Grain elevator works and animates just fine in the game. When the cotton building was created/edited using the grain elevator model...(which I still have all those files from the Rift 3 cotton building that was broken)...there was a typo in the globals that were made as a list for the industry...that was not done by Fraxis that was inside the map.

There is no cotton elevator in the Program Files/2K Games section of the game either...it is a mod to the game off of the grain elevator. So what Stock item needs fixed that you can mention? The Grain elevator has worked fine for me and all others for years now.

Well until you had mentioned the ability to grow an industry in the Editor no one had ever thought of it.

Then you may not know that if you pause and go control F while inside the editor then zoom in and out for pictures, that when you unpause the game dumps you in-game and out of the editor. I am used to using many game editors, so they all for the most part work the same. Learning the game editor is very important in building game mods of any kind.

You have stated that SMRI changed the stock items in the XML by typographical errors.

I do not recall ever blaming anything on smri except that maps inside the set have issues that were never addressed before placing them inside it. Once I made mention that the F B Unit wasn't added to the smri train engine files and the AC4400...those have been in the games addons from way back. Maps were poping up with red dots instead of trains. Is that to what you are refering as you seem to have one huge list for some reason.

You are more than welcome to Email me with your concerns, public flame isn't liked by anyone. Anything I have done or said is true and or can be backed up.

By the way, the Florida Gold map has the Food Plant modded, different color and has a new sign for Key West Key Lime Pies. You said that it haden't ever been modded in the game.

But the big point was missed here...it doesn't matter if it has the underscore or not...when you copy something from the games models and you want to rename it and make something new...watch the spelling. Keep everything spelled like the base model had. Then the underscore would not have been an issue as the base model was a sound model. I hope now you see what I have been saying throughout all these posts.

[Tijer]

Tijer



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 99
Location: Magic City, Banana Republic, Florida

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:31 am Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post

Jancsika wrote:
We should not fall in the same error that FIRAXIS made, by having a slightly different punctuation for the same thing.
In sample #1 I think it’s a good idea to have <BB_Xxxxxx> in the first line. It will prevent later confusion with FIRAXIS’ items.

Lowell wrote:
Fraxis didn't make that mistake...it was a typo in the global files that I found...those global files weren't placed there by Fraxis. Also the actions weren't edited and had the name of the grain elevator and not for a cotton elevator or whatever. The Build_Up or BuildUp stuff came when making new stuff and mixing their entrys. That's how I saw it so quick.


Lowell - Again you are posting misinformation, But this discussion belongs in chat, not here. If you want to continue the discussion you can meet me there.
_________________
AMD Athlon 64 3000+
2 GB DDR 400 RAM
ATI Redeon X700 Pro, 256 RAM/AGP
Omega Drivers for ATI 3.8.421 on trial
HD 180GB + 500GB
Windows XP/SP2/32 bit

Well let me refresh your memory. Jancsika states that the building blocks should follow one naming convention and should not follow in the foosteps of Fireaxis by having multiple naming conventions. The reference is made to Build_Up and Buildup. This is present in the Stock XML. This has nothing to do with Mods or GLOBALS. The Stock XML AKA Game Globals are the XML loaded on the Program Files/2K Games/Fireaxis Games/Sid Meier's Railroads !/Assets/XML. If you review the RRT_Industries.XML you will find all 4 versions, Build_Up, Build_up, Buildup, and BuildUp. So as I stated before, Fireaxis was inconsistent with the naming of files. Jancsika was making comment to the fact that we did not want to continue this problem in the BBs.

As to why you dredged up the Cotton Mill is beyond me since the post that I made referenced the stock XML. Should you need a pat on the head then, you may have a pat on the head, but the fact is the cotton mill that you claim to have created was already created in the revised Middle East Map. Your only contribution was to color the DDS a different color.

In the quote above you state that the different naming of the build up was not done by Fireaxis, but was done by "a typo in the global files". Well if Fireaxis did not create the different naming and it was not done by those that worked on SMRI, then what globals are you talking of and who created the different naming that is the topic of this discussion?

I have no intention of Flaming anyone, My intention is that members not be misinformed. When you make statements that, Typos where made that created the different naming conventions and that it was done by the globals, what are members going to think.

You state that the Key Lime Pie Factory is a Mod of the Food Plant. That is not the statement that I made. What I stated is that no one has made a mod called the food plant and the same is true for the Grain Elevator. If this created confusion for you I am sorry. But the point that I am making is

<szGrowKFM>FoodPlant_BuildUp.kfm</szGrowKFM>

While the Grain Elevator uses;

<szGrowKFM>Grain_Elevator_Build_Up.kfm</szGrowKFM>

So as Jancsika stated Fireaxis is the source of the mess. A mess that we do not want to carry over to the BBs.

[Lowell]

I was referring to his Rift map and the cotton industry that had that trouble. The games main files inside Program Files should Not in any way be 'fixed', just work around with what Fraxis has provided.

Replacing the main set of game globals should not be done either if that is what you are advocating. I was saying that if a map maker takes and makes something new from a working industry in the game, check it out before posting it on a supposed finished map.

If the main games files are spelled one way, how are they going to rewrite all the entries for the game, those are in the models Nif and Kfm files. Feel free to go inside each and every model and have fun renaming everything.

So I am not sure what you are trying to say. Some things are what they are...there are many many other maps at the forum that have made new content with what the game has provided, and we have had no trouble except things we map makers bring on ourselves. Each industry has a set group of files...it doesn't matter how the Food Plant is built when we are not talking about the Food Plants files. The files for the industry that was in question needed to be worked on as a single item. Other models have their spellings and file sets too.

Anyway have a good week this week. If I misread what they were trying to say then my point is still valid, and rewriting everything in-game is a bit daunting, and will/may bring up even more troubles. Keep it simple I say, and test. And I can change that buildup name to teardown_.kf if I want to or make it say orangeup_.kf if I feel like it. What I name my files is what I name my files...like the full set of Mud Skipper trains and TGV. Those train files have some strange spellings in them...but that's up to me the map maker. I can change the kf file names to whatever I feel like placing inside the KFMs actions listings...as I do rename everything inside all files.

[Tijer]

Again I can see that you are lost in the tangents that you have created. The subject of Rift Valley 3 and the cotton Mill are your own tangents, while at the same time you made the statement that:

"Fraxis didn't make that mistake...it was a typo in the global files that I found...those global files weren't placed thereby Fraxis."

While at the same time you have avoided answering the question of:

"Well if Fireaxis did not create the different naming and it was not done by those that worked on SMRI, then what globals are you talking of and who created the different naming that is the topic of this discussion?"

The topic of the discussion was the BBs, not Rift Valley or any other map or industry. The discussion is centered on how Fireaxis wrote the RRT_Industry.xml that is loaded on the Program Files side of the game. We are not discussing GLOBALS or anything else that is loaded on the My Games side of the game.

If the main games files are spelled one way, how are they going to rewrite all the entries for the game, those are in the models Nif and Kfm files. Feel free to go inside each and every model and have fun renaming everything.

No, the files under discussion are written 4 ways, not one. That was the point of Jancsikia's comment and the topic of this discussion.

So I am not sure what you are trying to say.

What I am saying is the same thing Jancsika said is that Fireaxis used 4 diffrent naming conventions, which create a greater chance of error.

Each industry has a set group of files...it doesn't matter how the Food Plant is built when we are not talking about the Food Plants files.

The point of the discussion is the way the files are tagged and that we do not want to perpetuate the same mess in the BBs.

If I misread what they were trying to say then my point is still valid, and rewriting everything in-game is a bit daunting, and will/may bring up even more troubles.

What you are saying in this comment is that even if you are wrong you are right. It is amazing that some one could be so arrogant. Face the fact that Fireaxis wrote the XML loaded on the Program Flies side of of the game and also admit that they used 4 different naming conventions. After all, any person who has the game loaded can open Program Files/ 2K Games/Fireaxis Games/Sid Meier's Railroads !/Assets/XML/RRT_Industries.xml and see the fact. There is no reason to state otherwise. If you are hoping to get a job offer from 2K or Fireaxis, that is great and good luck, just do not misinform the forum in the process.

On another topic, please do not advertise you maps on my thread. Since you do not like tangent discussions on your threads, and I will respect that, please do not disrespect me by advertising on my threads. Thank You.

[Lowell]

Obviously there is something else going on here...so have your Flame fun and leave me alone. My response was the base game runs fine less the junk. Make something new from a single item and watch your spelling and test the newly made object. It doesn't matter what/how each item is spelled, take each item at it's own. I think you just enjoy Flaming people for some reason and that is against Forum rules.

EDIT//As Rodea2007 explains below the same fact...if you know the xml's then it isn't a big deal at all...just be careful if you make something new.

[Rodea2007]

Tijer



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 99
Location: Magic City, Banana Republic, Florida

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:31 am Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post

Jancsika wrote:
We should not fall in the same error that FIRAXIS made, by having a slightly different punctuation for the same thing.
In sample #1 I think it’s a good idea to have <BB_Xxxxxx> in the first line. It will prevent later confusion with FIRAXIS’ items.

Lowell wrote:
Fraxis didn't make that mistake...it was a typo in the global files that I found...those global files weren't placed there by Fraxis. Also the actions weren't edited and had the name of the grain elevator and not for a cotton elevator or whatever. The Build_Up or BuildUp stuff came when making new stuff and mixing their entrys. That's how I saw it so quick.


Lowell - Again you are posting misinformation, But this discussion belongs in chat, not here. If you want to continue the discussion you can meet me there.
_________________
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Windows XP/SP2/32 bit

Well let me refresh your memory. Jancsika states that the building blocks should follow one naming convention and should not follow in the foosteps of Fireaxis by having multiple naming conventions. The reference is made to Build_Up and Buildup. This is present in the Stock XML. This has nothing to do with Mods or GLOBALS. The Stock XML AKA Game Globals are the XML loaded on the Program Files/2K Games/Fireaxis Games/Sid Meier's Railroads !/Assets/XML. If you review the RRT_Industries.XML you will find all 4 versions, Build_Up, Build_up, Buildup, and BuildUp. So as I stated before, Fireaxis was inconsistent with the naming of files. Jancsika was making comment to the fact that we did not want to continue this problem in the BBs.

As to why you dredged up the Cotton Mill is beyond me since the post that I made referenced the stock XML. Should you need a pat on the head then, you may have a pat on the head, but the fact is the cotton mill that you claim to have created was already created in the revised Middle East Map. Your only contribution was to color the DDS a different color.

In the quote above you state that the different naming of the build up was not done by Fireaxis, but was done by "a typo in the global files". Well if Fireaxis did not create the different naming and it was not done by those that worked on SMRI, then what globals are you talking of and who created the different naming that is the topic of this discussion?

I have no intention of Flaming anyone, My intention is that members not be misinformed. When you make statements that, Typos where made that created the different naming conventions and that it was done by the globals, what are members going to think.

You state that the Key Lime Pie Factory is a Mod of the Food Plant. That is not the statement that I made. What I stated is that no one has made a mod called the food plant and the same is true for the Grain Elevator. If this created confusion for you I am sorry. But the point that I am making is

<szGrowKFM>FoodPlant_BuildUp.kfm</szGrowKFM>

While the Grain Elevator uses;

<szGrowKFM>Grain_Elevator_Build_Up.kfm</szGrowKFM>

So as Jancsika stated Fireaxis is the source of the mess. A mess that we do not want to carry over to the BBs.

I guess about Build_Up and BuildUp without under score is no problem If the modder understand about XML, because what ever word in used as name, XML can be adopt. you can see in FPK files from My Map West Sumatera Map I had rename file name with my language but I'm consist write in XML with new name. so not problem what ever word you put as file name. Important to noticed XML is case sensitif, be carefull to write in XML and don't change kf file name as you like because KFM file reference to it if you do animation can't be run

[Tijer]

Hello Rodea

The Idea of the BBs is that if the modeler alter the BB, they will only have to change the basic name. Jancsika's intention is to limit errors by following a standard format. By having the 4 different forms of Build Up, creates a problem since most people tend to think that a standard naming convention is used in a single project. So unless the Modeler is aware of the multi conventions, they may recreate the the grain elevator which uses Build_Up in to a Coconut Plantation. Then they decide to convert the Food plant into a Coconut Factory. Since they have already got it stuck in their mind that Build_Up is the convention, they rename the items of the new Coconut Factory to Build_Up instead of BuildUp. The only intention is to try to make it as dummy proof as possible, but their is still no guarantees. Even if you are careful, due to other distractions, making a mistake is easy. This is especially true when you work on a map in your spare time or just on weekends. You are always asking yourself "Did I continue my work at the same place that I stopped the other day?"

[Rodea2007]

Hello Rodea

The Idea of the BBs is that if the modeler alter the BB, they will only have to change the basic name. Jancsika's intention is to limit errors by following a standard format. By having the 4 different forms of Build Up, creates a problem since most people tend to think that a standard naming convention is used in a single project. So unless the Modeler is aware of the multi conventions, they may recreate the the grain elevator which uses Build_Up in to a Coconut Plantation. Then they decide to convert the Food plant into a Coconut Factory. Since they have already got it stuck in their mind that Build_Up is the convention, they rename the items of the new Coconut Factory to Build_Up instead of BuildUp. The only intention is to try to make it as dummy proof as possible, but their is still no guarantees. Even if you are careful, due to other distractions, making a mistake is easy. This is especially true when you work on a map in your spare time or just on weekends. You are always asking yourself "Did I continue my work at the same place that I stopped the other day?"

hi Tijer

That is I said to make a map someone should be understood about XML criteria if not as like someone post a new his map on the forum a few weeks ago. You can called it'is as crazy map (sorry) if their understand about XML their must to following of the XML rules I means not need to make a standard format for this, but that modeler or mapper must consistent to write what's name for model into XML files. to notice In RRT XML File there are some RRT XML have connection with another RRT XML for ex. RRT_City have connection to RRT_Goods and RRT_Industries Have connection too with RRT_Good, RRT_depot have connection with RRT_Industry . That is Important to know you must write the same name to RRT_XML and with connection, finally I said if someone want's to make a maps please first learning about xml and what ever "word" as name for the model is no problem but you must consistent to write in all XML file with the connection.

[Tijer]

Hello Rodea

That is one of the reasons that we are making the BBs in the first place. The hope is to make is easier for Mappers to Map and Modelers to Mod. Copy and paste is easier then to type and cause errors.

We can not do anything about the stock items created by Fireaxis. Those will stay as they are, but the items created by the forum can follow a single naming convention. If some one insist on making all items Map specific to their map then chances are that they will make errors. The hope of BBs is to help people learn about XML, and hopefully, have more people build maps. As well the hope is that we will get maps of different areas. For the most part eastern North America and western Europe have been mapped quite well, The rest of the planet could still use more development. Hopefully the BBs will get others to take the plunge.