On mods and good forum citizenship - part 2

[Falconer]

All,

I find it disheartening and frustrating to keep having to look into grown-up people misbehaving towards each other on these forums. This is the second time in 2 months that I need to step in, but have had to do so several times in the past as well.

Over the years, we have had several successful fan forums here at HG, each of them with a very unique community that had its own unique collection of people making for its own unique dynamics. On all these forums we have had small arguments. We always were able to discuss and sort out the differences between the participants.

Now I find myself asking: "why can't these guys sort out their differences".

- General conduct towards one another is appalling
- Respect is lacking
- Sense of 'doing something as and for the community' is missing

I have removed Snoopy (and Atani) as moderators. I have done this because it is easy to see that it is very difficult for him to stay impartial. Before you wonder if that means he wasn't a good moderator: he was, but the community has made it impossible for him to be so. For someone who has done so much for the community, he deserves more respect than some of you have given him.

Tijer: You are a first class instigator and a considerable part of the problem. Despite warnings, you continue to misbehave. Your account has been deactivated for now and I am not sure if I will ever activate it again.

Everyone else: Understand that you are working towards the same goal: To create cool mods and maps that people love to play. Think on that.

[Jancsika]

It is your board and your decision and I am in a complete agreement with you as far as the disruptive arguments are concerned, but it sends the wrong message.
With all his faults it was Snoopy who was holding this community together. You could have asked him privately to resign (that would have been more diplomatic), now it looks like he is the one to blame and that is not fair. I would like to see Snoopy reinstated.
This used to be such a nice and helpful community and I sincerely hope that it will stay such.
Jancsika

[Warll]

Well of course Snoopy was not impartial, you took the two heaviest active members and made them mods. If you wanted impartial get some one with no ties to the forum. Now heres the real question, whats happening to Lowell? He is after all the cause of all this conflict.

[Falconer]

If you read my post properly, you will see that the message is very clear. Snoopy is in the midst of the discussion -pushed there by the community as a whole- and being in the midst is making it impossible for him to perform his function as moderator.

WarII: I get weekly PMs from forum members on both side of the discussion. You may feel Lowell is the cause of the problem, but many don't agree with you. You are obviously on one side of the fence, but don't think for a moment that it is particularly crowded on that side. The PMs I'm getting show support for both sides.

And that brings me to the problem. Sides. Why the hell are there sides? We're all on the same team, or at least should be!

I have stated before that no one owns mods for Railroads, or ideas of specific ways of doing things. As such, there is no stealing and no wrong way of doing things.

We can all go bonkers and disagree with each others viewpoints and ways to implement and deliver mods into someone's game, but it's:

1. Childish
2. Moot
3. Disrespectful towards the hard work people have put into it

Why can't everyone just agree to disagree?

You are forgetting what you're here for: to make a great game even better, and to do that by teamwork. It's supposed to be fun! But instead of having fun, you chose to bicker about things that aren't worth bickering over.

Would you in real life bark at your neighbor for mowing his lawn from left to right instead of back to front like you do? That's exactly the level of these discussions.

Pull the fence down and let everyone do their thing. Don't bicker about it if someone does something you don't agree with. If you are right, time will show that you are, no need to make fuss about it now.

It is entirely possible that Snoopy will be a moderator again in the future. As I said, he is a good moderator and the community owes him much. At the moment though, we need a completely impartial moderator and I fear that this forum does not have one.

[Warll]

I have stated before that no one owns mods for Railroads, or ideas of specific ways of doing things. As such, there is no stealing and no wrong way of doing things.

I have to disagree with you there, now while I do believe thats how it should work, I know that in reality and by law people do own them. More specificity they own the copyrights to their work. Now in the past we never had any problems with this, no one was overly possessive and everything was treated as if it was public domain. The problem of course is that nowhere was this declared or officially posted. In fact I had once or twice suggested to snoopy(or was it Atani) that we should add a sticky making it official that everything was in the public domain unless the author appended their own license, this was never acted upon sadly.

[snoopy55]

I'm probably going to touch this just wrong, I normally do, I'm a lousy diplomat.

I have not been trying to claim that SAM was soley my idea and that I have full rights to it. All I've asked for is the truth as to where the CIC idea really came from. It has been stated that it came from the Utah map, the Santa map and from an idea from Karsten, all on different posts and different threads. I have the E-mails dated 1/2/2008 thru 1/12/2008 of the discussion between Lowell and I and how he got his FG map to work as a SAM. My second request is for him and others to stop condemning a type of map that has not been posted yet. Nothing more, nothing less. And third, for the 88 maps by 29 authors to not be condemned and as un-usable.

And that is the end of my part on this subject. I didn't start the debates, I defended the forum and its' contents, past and future.

[Wolfwood]

Do the mods in Railroads! actually involve so much innovation that they could fall under the individual author's copyrights and not Firaxis'? Is there nothing in the Railroads! EULA about the possible mods made for the game?

If modding for this game actually involves a lot of innovation, as in actual programming code, then - in retrospect - we should prolly have instated a rule that anything uploaded to this forum will be in public domain and usable by third parties as long as they mention where possible reused bits came from.

However, as long as it can be argued that the modders are merely taking advantage of the possibilities made available by Firaxis, then no modder can claim copyright to anything but their original art work and related details.

Unfortunately, neither me nor Falc have actually tried modding the game ourselves, so this possibility escaped our attention and was never discussed.

[Falconer]

We never discussed it for Pirates! either. It's not that hard to figure out though. From the Railroads! readme:

All Customized Game Materials created by you are exclusively owned by LICENSOR and/or its licensors (as the case may be) and you hereby transfer, assign and convey to LICENSOR all right, title and interest in and to the Customized Game Materials and LICENSOR and its permitted licensors may use any Customized Game Materials made publicly available to you for any purpose whatsoever, including but not limited to for purposes of advertising and promoting the Software;

Licensor =/= TakeTwo and Firaxis.

They own everything you make.

[Lowell]

Any modded work for any game is owned by that game. They could come to this forum and grab any of those maps and add them to a new expansion pack for their game. Even the Oil tanker which I paid $80 for is open territory for other map makers to use. I have always stated all my work and content is free for all map makers to use...and I will also help them use it if they need help with their map.

When I started making my maps they were made in the global file format everyone was using. I posted Florida gold and people had to copy paste the new items for the game into their game. People started asking me if I could make my maps be in one file folder and pointed me towards this SAM project snoopy was working on. Snoopy tried to tell me the basic idea behind the SAM project. I never saw any SAM maps or files created for Sam's. So I never ever saw any script of file format for what he was talking about. I asked for a sample so I could see how it was made...I was told there wasn't a working model at that stage. So all I ever knew about Sam's was just talk.

Then talking with Karsten and others, I slowly built the file set I now use. I crashed it out a zillion times before I got it to work. I had to place global game files one at a time in the maps files as I ran into issues. Then the maps assets must be kept in a folder inside the map file. Through the team that worked with me in creating this one file folder methods...the name of Clean Install Compatible CIC name was created. I did not think up that name.

So many others had a hand in this maps file creation...and at no time did any of those people see a Sam map...until way later...I think one or two were floating around as test maps. To really test the maps file format, you have to have a map that uses new goods and such added to the game...any map that uses default game goods and such can be placed in usermaps and run fine...so in testing a SAM map to make sure it really works you would need to add new goods and industries to it.

I don't know what it is I "started" as Warll stated. I am only making maps here. Once I stated that I would like to keep all the maps in-game and not have single maps. But after making these changes and seeing the difference...I had posted that I needed to change my thoughts and this CIC method was better and makes the game run faster and crash free. I stated that my findings had changed my mind and that new maps with new content need to be made this way to avoid crashing out people's games. Sam's are the same thing as CIC maps...the only difference is in the CIC maps the maps new stuff is kept inside the map folder in a second folder called Assets. Sam's may have loose FPKs that are kept outside the map folder...hence the CIC maps are a single file folder drop and play map. That's it.

So why the big deal...and why keep pounding on me. Make your maps the way you wish. I have not trashed anyone maps on this forum. I have always offered to help any map maker. I am just an artist and I make mods for many games...many forums. The Florida gold CIC map is the first size 20 map with new game content to run clean and crash free. I also beta test all my maps before they are posted. Remember, as a studying artist I learn something new everyday, and what I thought was right in December...isn't what I now see in map making for this game today...and I have made that statement many times and others have said the same thing as well.

[Wolfwood]

All Customized Game Materials created by you are exclusively owned by LICENSOR and/or its licensors (as the case may be) and you hereby transfer, assign and convey to LICENSOR all right, title and interest in and to the Customized Game Materials and LICENSOR and its permitted licensors may use any Customized Game Materials made publicly available to you for any purpose whatsoever, including but not limited to for purposes of advertising and promoting the Software;

I thought so. That's what EULA's usually say.

As far as it seems to me, the way you structure the stuff in different folders in a mod should never become something that you start fighting each other about. I have no idea who started what or what the arguments are about (there must be more to it than folder structures, right? No one would argue about something like that, right?), but the point is that as long as the community has not made a unified decision to do things one way and the developers of the game have allowed for multiple ways of doing things, then there's no reason to start a battle over something like this.

Everyone should just do stuff the way they see best. The community then decides what mods they play and what they don't play - and I suspect most of the gamers out there don't give a rat's ass about how the folders are structured as long as the mods offer them entertainment.

Just IMHO.

[snoopy55]

Even the Oil tanker which I paid $80 for is open territory for other map makers to use.

From FG 400:

Also, are you using Max? If so...maybe you could convert a couple models for me? That would speed things up on these projects for sure. If you are using max you may even be able to get my Oil Tanker model I have made up for this map. That would blow the Oil Rigs away for sure.

You also posted a PNG stating it was a rendering of your work in Lightwave. I found that picture in the advertisement for that ship, along with a few others you posted on the forum. You never once stated where you really got that from until now, and while we are speaking of copyright, that is copyrighted on the site it came from, you had no right to make it public domain, and it probably still isn't.

From an E-mail received Jan 1, 2008:

You can't place all the stuff in one FPK for Florida...the max file size for the site per file is 15mb. Florida has too much new stuff to fit into one. Any repairs or re-building of any of my scenario files, must be done by myself that are on any threads I have made. I need to know every line as these are projects that go in a sort-of portfolio of my work...a web page will be built on my art site for this game and twelve others and their maps/mods. The web site is a resume of my work...so it all must be done or finished by myself. If you find something that needs corrected or changed in any way please let me know right away...even years down the road. Thanks.

As far as people having to copy and paste. On Dec 24, 2007 you posted that atani was working up the Installer for you. Why did he never finish that you might ask? Here we are, July 6, 2008, and you still have not finished this map. Did you expect him to rewrite the Installer each time you rewrote your map? This is the reason he didn't write an Installer for it. And don't tell me any different, we were on the internet chatting when I pointed out that you were changing the map and he would have to change his Installer content. He told me to hold on, came back and wrote that he refused to write an Installer for any map until it was finished. You have a total of 208 edits for 3 maps. And while I grant you that not all of them were for map changes, most of them were, and changes have been made to those maps that won't show up in those edit numbers.

Snoopy tried to tell me the basic idea behind the SAM project.

Yes, I did, and you got your Florida Gold map to work. BUT, you refused to use it because it crashed when included with non-Original maps, which I said to your deaf ears, could not be done, Stand Alone Maps! Simple concept, simple to do. As to samples, I never gave you any samples for three reasons, first we were working a few last kinks out of the things, two, I've seen you take things, bend them a little, and make note of a new idea. And three, unlike you, I don't post things until they are finished.

So all I ever knew about Sam's was just talk.

I have the E-mails between you and I. Anyone who wants to see copies, just PM me.

Then talking with Karsten and others, I slowly built the file set I now use. Funny, this 'new idea' came about just after I sent working samples to Karsten and a few others, who said they worked fine. Again, you want copies of the E-mails, ask.


You see Lowell, the reason you had such problems with your maps is you choose to write up a map with a large content (and I'm not talking maps size) and then try to test it. This is why you had such problems getting the SAM style to work, you rewrote it and parts between one XML and another didn't match. Then you finally got it working and did the one thing that a Stand Alone Map cannot do, you tried to run it with SMRI installed. And when you repeatedly tried to do the same thing with no success so you go and throw a fit about loosing 6 months of hard work. Didn't you keep original files?

Mar 27, 2008. Construction Zone, 'What we are doing here...'

I have come across something that fixs maps large or small from ever crashing again. I've taken large maps...not just mine...and built a set of files that runs in a "Clean Game." Meaning that if you just buy the game, load it onto your machine, then take the "single map folder" and place it inside usermaps. All new items for the map get placed inside the folder with the maps files "uncompressed" meaning no FPKs. The game reads through everything super fast that way.

Interesting that I sent 5 SAMs to Karsten on Mar 9, 2008, and on Mar 22, 2008, he replied that they work great. He then goes on to say he would prefer them to be a single file instead of two or more. This way those nasty FPK files wouldn't get lost or forgotten. In my instructions the only FKP in CustomAssets was to be NewTenders.fpk. At that time we figured that would be no trouble leaving that in there since almost every map uses it. I never spoke of putting FPKs anywhere else, the idea was unzip the map file and put the contents into UserMaps. Period. Now I'll admit, we did forget about those nasty FPKs having limbs and wandering all over the hard drives, but we started cutting their limbs off so they can no longer do this. We have found a few that can crawl, so we are looking into a tether to attach them to the map folder..... NOT! As far as I know I never once stated that the maps FPKs were to go into CustomAssets. And as to loosing them? They are in the ZIP file, they will always be in the zip file, so how to you come up not having them when you want to play the map again . Please tell me....

So why the big deal...and why keep pounding on me. Make your maps the way you wish.

All I keep doing is telling you to stop telling people to stay away from SAMs because of those wandering FPK files. If I post some SAMs, are you going to leave them alone or post a skull and crossbones sign in front of them? You have been trashing the SAM concept simply because you could not get it to work the way you wanted and you want everyone to use your way, which still does not have a set way. I do not care if anyone downloads and uses SAMs, the whole thing is the fact that you keep condemning them, even in this last post you made. Doesn't the sentence "Please stop putting down my work" mean anything to you? Do your CICs, I have no problem with that. It has simply been that you continue to state that SAMs in no way influenced your CIC style. You state the Fifaxis Santa map. That is not a stand alone, in no way. It was written just like all the other maps, it just had new content. The Utah map is nothing like your CICs, it simply used a BAT file to play around with file names to get them out of the way when a person wanted to play other maps. I rewrote it for my own use as I preferred not to mess with BAT files. Universium made note of this, but it was needed in order for it to be made into an Installer as many other people didn't like BAT files either. And if Universium stormed off the forum because of something I did, he never posted it on the forum. His only thing with me was the setting up of that Difficulty XML because it may not have the correct amounts of money. Later he wrote a Difficulty XML himself, so where did he storm away because of me.

And I'll ask this again. Tijer was in this as much as I am. Why is it that every time a thing about the SAMs is brought up, you leave him out. When I speak of them I try my best to use the word 'we' and words of the type. Give the man his credit

Falconer and Wolfwood. I have not started any debates, I have simply chose to defend the work of others and myself. A statement to the effect that 88 existing maps should not be loaded because they will mess up the game has to be replied to. A statement that a new style of mapping should not be touched simply because one person could not get it to work for him has to be replied to. It was stated that as a Moderator I should have been impartial to all of this. Isn't a Moderators job to stop false accusations that tend to make people think twice about using something? Even if SAMs had not been my creation, I still would have asked that the condemning of them be stopped, just as I stated that the condemning of those 88 maps be stopped. Those maps are the backbone of this forum, and the reason people come here and keep coming back. Just as I've asked that if you see a problem with a map, point out that the map has a problem. It cannot be repaired if the problem isn't brought to light. Beta testers? Yes, every map on this forum has been beta tested, by the people who played them.

I could go on, but I've probably said to much already. If you want me as a Moderator, then post what I am to do and not do. Tell me where I can step in and stop false information. And if I need to step back and cease work on SAMs and Building Blocks because it will conflict, then I guess I will have to. If I'm not made a Moderator with these rules, I will not be on this forum for long because I will end up getting kicked off because I will continue to defend the work I and others have done, now and in the future.

I'll end this now, Karstens post and accusations got me very uptight, and I do have a life to live.

[Lowell]

See...this is the kind of stuff I am talking about. I bought that ship and the person who has it at Turbo Squid emailed me and said I am allowed to use it any way I wish and the mod community is welcome to use that model. He even said he wanted to get the game just to see it in action. That is what TurboSquid models are for...commercial projects and the artists that sell them there know all that.

I have used Lightwave from version 5.6 and beta tested version 9. I know tons of artists in that community and you have no idea what transpires between them and myself. Now you accuse me of steeling someones work and posting it on a public forum. It just so happens that at the Turbo Squid forum, all models are set for many software extent ions...max, lightwave and several others per model. Lightwave doesn't convert models into Nif files...max will. I asked Rodea if he would convert the model into a nif file...so what.

Snoopy you just keep rambling out all this stuff that you read between people's lines. Others are trying to have a good time here and produce some good artwork for others to enjoy. You seem to get angry at that.

I even offered to help you many times, and got stabbed in the back every time. Karsten told me that just before I came to this forum, several of the big map makers ran off scramming because of things you had done/said to them...many have also told me this. Many also came to me and said that if there was another RailRoads! forum they would be gone in a heart beat. I read through many of the map threads, and I can see the posts they were talking about. Every map has some comment that is negative.

You seem to be against me me no matter what, every post I make you are right behind me saying something.

You have done quite a bit of advertising here with this last post...wish I could stomach reading any of it.

You stated that I was not allowed to post my CIC maps...you said you didn't think the group was ready for that style map and file system...yet...well, people love it and the game doesn't crash. You also said that I "had" to make my maps so they would work in that SMRI group that crashes out almost every map. My maps won't work in that map group and the project was never beta tested and has several maps that crash. Many people that I talk to at the forum said they have had to uninstall SMRI, that it ruined their game...not to mention the maps and their files that were rebuilt to go into that group as they now crash.

The object here is for all at the forum to have a good time, be friendly and have fun...kids come here for crapes sake...have a some respect for others for once. I have worked many months to get these maps to run and fix this game from crashing...and I fixed it, it runs great and solid. Now you are mad...I see.

Quote all you want, but remember I am an artist and I "learn new things everyday" and adapt to them if it works. You are stuck in the past...we are moving on.

We are not here to talk about my learning experience with this game...we are here because too many people have complained about a totally bad attitude and no leadership skills. Even when I was PMing you and telling you I would be glad to help you on any of your projects, you were right behind me spitting out flames with tijer in areas of the forum you thought I might not look.

Nobody is scaring anybody off of your sam maps. The only differance between them and the cic style is the maps content is kept inside the map folder in cic maps...in sam maps you have FPKs that are outside the map folder and are extra files the player has to mess with...CICs only have one file folder yours has a map folder and one or more FPKs. If that explanation "scares" them off your files...maybe it is the player wanting something different. People asked me at my map thread if I could get everything into one file folder and add nothing to their default game...that is what I did, so maybe...just maybe, I gave the people what they asked for and it has nothing to do with scaring them off...also my maps don't crash yours has always crashed inside smri, I tried to tell you but as many can see this is where we are today because of me telling the truth.

I am complete with this conversation, and don't like harassment.

EDIT...6-7-'08 4:38am... wow...dude...are you still up trashing me again
You really need to just chill. Make your stuff and go on with life...you have your threads I have mine. I asked you politely to stop the personal attacks and you keep it up. I now consider you as harrassing me. I would ask you nicely once more, to stop your public slander towards me, my artwork and public statements.

[snoopy55]

See...this is the kind of stuff I am talking about. I bought that ship and the person who has it at Turbo Squid emailed me and said I am allowed to use it any way I wish and the mod community is welcome to use that model. He even said he wanted to get the game just to see it in action. That is what TurboSquid models are for...commercial projects and the artists that sell them there know all that.

I have used Lightwave from version 5.6 and beta tested version 9. I know tons of artists in that community and you have no idea what transpires between them and myself. Now you accuse me of steeling someones work and posting it on a public forum. It just so happens that at the Turbo Squid forum, all models are set for many software extent ions...max, lightwave and several others per model. Lightwave doesn't convert models into Nif files...max will. I asked Rodea if he would convert the model into a nif file...so what.

I never said you stole it, I said you referenced it as 'your work, never mentioning until now that you had bought it. A simple "I got bought this online and thought it would be great for my map' would have been nice.

Snoopy you just keep rambling out all this stuff that you read between people's lines. Others are trying to have a good time here and produce some good artwork for others to enjoy. You seem to get angry at that.

I'm not rambling on, I am doing what you refuse to do here, showing quotes. It doesn't take reading between the lines when you cab read the lines themselves.

I even offered to help you many times, and got stabbed in the back every time.

Quote these times you offered to help me that I turned you down, OTHER than when you said that the only way for SAMs to work is if the files were put in a folder in the map. That is not required, and it works the way I designed it.

Karsten told me that just before I came to this forum, several of the big map makers ran off scramming because of things you had done/said to them...many have also told me this. Many also came to me and said that if there was another RailRoads! forum they would be gone in a heart beat. I read through many of the map threads, and I can see the posts they were talking about. Every map has some comment that is negative.

Funny, I just went thru the maps and only a few left before you came around, and I didn't seem to find and screams in it. I could say the same thing about you if I chose to, but it would be a lie, and I don't do that, I back things I say up with a quote. And if you call pointing out problems with maps 'negative', then I guess everyone else who has pointed out problems and made comments about what they didn't like about a map needs to leave also. You don't want a person to say, 'This is a bit of a problem and you need to fix it'. You have stated you only want positive remarks about your maps, and if you want, I'll find it.

You seem to be against me me no matter what, every post I make you are right behind me saying something.

You have done quite a bit of advertising here with this last post...wish I could stomach reading any of it.

I'm only against the things I mentioned in my previous post, cutting down something just because you were unable to get it to work. I repeat, "I am not against your CIC maps, Just the fact of all I went thru in E-mail with you, and the fact that you have claimed three different places you got this idea from, three different times". .....and what advertising did I do? And someone must have erased all of those posts I wrote right behind EVERY one of your post.

You stated that I was not allowed to post my CIC maps...you said you didn't think the group was ready for that style map and file system...yet...well, people love it and the game doesn't crash. You also said that I "had" to make my maps so they would work in that SMRI group that crashes out almost every map. My maps won't work in that map group and the project was never beta tested and has several maps that crash. Many people that I talk to at the forum said they have had to uninstall SMRI, that it ruined their game...not to mention the maps and their files that were rebuilt to go into that group as they now crash.

Please quote those posts for me, I must have been asleep when I wrote them.
I could care less if you post your CICs, and never have cared. And you seem to miss a definition here. The SMRI was a set of ten maps compiled by Atani and Warll which they asked my thoughts on which I thought should be in it. I was given a very short time to test those maps, WHICH I COMPLAINED ABOUT TO THEM ABOUT! I tested what I could and they made the corrections that I found. So, get off my back about SMRI, IT WAS NOT MINE! As to GLOBALS, that was not my idea either, even tho you and your friends keep telling me so. Read 'Mods - Talk', 'Global XML Instructions'. In the first line I gave the credit where it was to go. I was just told to carry on with it, and stupid me, I did most of the research of it. And it worked. At the time that was created we had no idea that there would be so many Mods done, and it just grew to big for itself. That is where Tijer and I separately came up with the idea of maps with mods that didn't need GLOBALS. Somewhere around mid November we got together and started working out the structure and the bugs. And like any intelligent people, we just refused to toss it to the forum without it working correctly. Kind of common sense, we didn't want people to have trouble getting it to work and then state it was no good.

The object here is for all at the forum to have a good time, be friendly and have fun...kids come here for crapes sake...have a some respect for others for once. I have worked many months to get these maps to run and fix this game from crashing...and I fixed it, it runs great and solid. Now you are mad...I see.

I replied to that before.

Quote all you want, but remember I am an artist and I "learn new things everyday" and adapt to them if it works. You are stuck in the past...we are moving on.

For someone stuck in the past, I've certainly been way ahead of many things, and have worked to bring other there also. You think i did those Building Blocks because I got bored for four months? They are required in order to make the SAMs. I have to know what makes up each Mod, and I figured that others could use this information as long as I had it done. That is part being ahead. Just like editing a few Industries in different colors to make a player able to distinguish them from one another is moving ahead.

We are not here to talk about my learning experience with this game...we are here because too many people have complained about a totally bad attitude and no leadership skills. Even when I was PMing you and telling you I would be glad to help you on any of your projects, you were right behind me spitting out flames with tijer in areas of the forum you thought I might not look.

You are the only one talking about any learning experience.
As to a leader, I'm not here to lead, that is not a moderators job as far as I was told. It was to edit language like c**pes, which you used above when speaking about children. Good move my man. I've been a supervisor in three separate companies, two given up because I had to move, and the last because of health. As to your helping me, are you saying that I should have accepted your help? I'm not the only one to not take your help.
And I highly doubt we went off in some corner of the forum to talk about you expecting you to never find it. If we want to talk about you, there is a thing called a telephone, which we use when we call each other almost every other day to do the work we do.

Nobody is scaring anybody off of your sam maps.

I'd post all the quotes from you when you did that, but I'm tired of doing so, you just ignore them anyway.

The only differance between them and the cic style is the maps content is kept inside the map folder in cic maps...in sam maps you have FPKs that are outside the map folder and are extra files the player has to mess with...CICs only have one file folder yours has a map folder and one or more FPKs. If that explanation "scares" them off your files...maybe it is the player wanting something different. People asked me at my map thread if I could get everything into one file folder and add nothing to their default game...that is what I did, so maybe...just maybe, I gave the people what they asked for and it has nothing to do with scaring them off...also my maps don't crash yours has always crashed inside smri, I tried to tell you but as many can see this is where we are today because of me telling the truth.

Again, how you CICs work is not my concern. that has been discussed and stated several times, but again, you just ignore it. And the only way people are going to get scared away at this point is by what you have said since, until today, I have not posted any. You have told them to stay away from SAMs, not just made the above statement. But again, you even ignore your own posts.

As to my maps crashing in SMRI, SAMs don't go in SMRI, and my maps were not one of the ones I got to test.

Warll, if you are out there, either give a one liner agreeing with what I said about the making of the SMRI, or correct me in as few lines as you can, I don't want to get you into this any farther that need be.

I am complete with this conversation, and don't like harassment.

And I refuse to touch that line.


Falconer, maybe you need to create a section somewhere on your Hookedgamers where only people specified by you can go in and write and read this type of material. This would keep it off the main forum, and could be moved by you or someone you appoint. A person would have to sign up to use it, and no complaints about what is said, aside from language, could be made....don't like what is there, stay out.

Just a thought.....

[Rodea2007]

Tijer: You are a first class instigator and a considerable part of the problem. Despite warnings, you continue to misbehave. Your account has been deactivated for now and I am not sure if I will ever activate it again.

I disagree with it...
I think that is not good decision, should be you have to give him second warning then third warning before you made these decision.
I'm neutral in here but your decision to deactivated Tijer account make me dissapointed...sorry...

[Wolfwood]

Huh, this story is pretty convoluted, to say the least. Both parties have their own versions of the events and the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

However, trying to get to the truth will probably just cause more bad blood because it will be unavoidably subjective. The only thing that we can try to do is to pick up the pieces and try to build something new.

In this case, I'd advice all the central players to apply a little self-censorship to their posts in the future. Whatever your feelings of past event, please try to put them behind you.

If everyone agrees that their mods are being made for public domain, then no one taking advantage of previous work should use expressions that may be interpreted to mean that they claim all ownership to their work. Those who use previous work as basis for their own creations should _always_ be open about it and try to list the people or mods upon which their work is based.

Likewise, if someone sees their idea being used in some other mod, they should just be happy for the fact that someone saw something worthy in their work. If they notice that their name is not mentioned, a friendly note in an applicable thread is the way to go. No outright accusations. If this does not produce the desired results, a contact with the moderators is the next step.

And, please, remember that we are all here to have fun. Mistakes will happen, people's personalities and egos will clash, but we all share a common goal: to enjoy Railroads! and the mods that we produce.