Is anyone else as confused as I am?

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Greybriar
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Is anyone else as confused as I am?

Post by Greybriar » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:41 am

I think I have downloaded every SAM map that is linked to here. But I see
Tazz wrote:Added SAM version to first post.
No notation of any kind is in the first post so unless someone reads the entire thread will s/he read Tazz's post. And even then, exactly what has changed with the SAM version? Do I need to download it again? Or is it the same one I downloaded before.

In the meantime, the whole first page of the Mods - Maps forum is nearly covered with stickied threads. A few more stickied threads and we will have to go to page 2 to read any new posts.

I don't know what the answer is. Perhaps a new subforum should be created for all the stickied threads so they will have a place to go where they won't add to the confusion.

What say ye?

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Wolfwood
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Re: Is anyone else as confused as I am?

Post by Wolfwood » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:06 am

A subforum for finished mods - or mods that are in playable condition (a definition of "finished" in this case, I guess) - would prolly be the best idea. I was approached about this problem earlier by Tazz, but I'm sorry to say that I forgot to respond to it.

Unless someone can come up with an argument against a sub-forum, I'll see if we can make one today or tomorrow.
“People aren’t wearing enough hats.” - Monty Python

snoopy55
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Re: Is anyone else as confused as I am?

Post by snoopy55 » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:13 am

Greybriar - When I first was of a mind to post the SAMs on the first post I figured that in able to let it be known that the SAM version was there I'd have to make a last post so it would be brought to peoples attention. If you don't, how would anyone know that the SAM was on the first post? Only an added post makes the thread notable. I'd have to guess Tazz had the same thought as I don't seem to get any replies from him.

As to the 'stickies'...what in tarnation are you talking about? Only the first post is a sticky. That is why this thread you created is the second one, and not near the bottom of the page. A 'sticky' looks like a piece of notepad with a piece of tape in the top two corners. 'How to install SAMs...... ' is the only sticky in Maps at this time. And the stickies in a subforum is not such a good idea. The stickies are there for important info, like the one I have as to how to load SAMs. A subforum would hide stickies from peoples eyes.

As to the posting of the SAMs, let me go over this once more. I'm the one working these things up. Most of the original mappers have left the forum. Only two levels of people can edit another members posts, the Administrators, who are busy with other things, and the Moderator, which I was, I am no more, and Tazz is. I had originally figured on posting the SAM to the first post of the map it was made from. Good idea, but I'm no longer the Moderator, so I had to create, at Falconers suggestion, a thread to post them on. A big complaint went up as to to many versions of the same map in different places. Tazz is taking care of that now. I have to post them for him to place them on the maps thread, so there is no other way to do it.

As to what is different about the SAMs..... multiple things. A lot of the maps were not tested when they were posted. Even when they were played and crashed, it was not always reported. My Middle East map crashed and I knew nothing of it for about 7 months. (sorry, I'm a creator, not a player. Play it enough to make sure it works and go on) We of Snoopy Inc have found several problems.
Second, (and this is my favorite example) do you like to play a map where you run your Goods to a Distribution Center that looks like a Smelter? We're using the Mods from later maps to replace things in other maps so they are more realistic. Not changing the map, just what the contents look like. We're adding Tenders to the Engines, a nice touch.
Third, as more and more maps were made and more Mods added the whole thing got to big for most if not all computers. If GLOBALS were used for all the Mods that are now in existence, the size of the XMLs and the FPK/folders would be ridicules! :shock: ! So, what Tijer and I came up with was Stand Alone Maps. They only contain what the map needs, so that is all they load. We've been able to take existing Mods and cut their size down to lower the total size of the FPKs. (Basin and Range is being cut way back)

Sorry, rereading your post I see now what you asked.... No, you don't have to download it a second time, both copies are the same. I could go through and delete them, but we have people that come in to this forum to download maps, not read all those many pages of posts. That thread has over 1000 downloads at this time. As to the first post That is the way Tazz did them. I can not think of any other way to do it myself. The SAMs are the first download on the first post. Get a few people to come up with an acceptable way to notify people and PM Tazz with it and see what happens....

As to a subforum for finished maps... not to good of an idea. If all goes OK, all the maps I'm going to SAM will be done by the end of the year at the latest. So, with that, you are going to be opening Mods - Maps, seeing about 12 threads that have no maps to download, a few that are posted and a subforum. Once the new maps are OK'd by someone, you may not see any threads

Please be patient.... I'm one map editor making SAMs, making Building Blocks to make the SAMs work, answering questions on the forum, trying to write up tutorials, trying to work on my own map and working with my 3 testers to get all of this out to people that seem to be loving the new way of SAMs and the ability to play these maps with no crashes. At times like these I'm almost glad I'm not Moderator anymore..... :shock: ...

Now, it's 6:00 in the morning and I do sleep somewhere around here........ :shock: :?:
I'm correct 97% of the time..... who cares about the other 4%....

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Greybriar
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Re: Is anyone else as confused as I am?

Post by Greybriar » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:12 pm

snoopy55 wrote:Greybriar - As to the 'stickies'...what in tarnation are you talking about?
Oops! I mistook the paper clip icon for the 'sticky' one. :oops:

I appreciate your explanation and I also appreciate all the effort you and Tazz have put into the community, Snoopy. But the two of you certainly confuse me sometimes.

Now go to bed and get some rest. :wink:

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karsten
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Re: Is anyone else as confused as I am?

Post by karsten » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:17 pm

Wolfwood wrote:A subforum for finished mods ... would prolly be the best idea.
I support Wolfwood's proposal. Moving the SMR forum community from global-dependent to stand-alone maps has been a major effort over more than a year, that required much energy. The detailed history is discouraging to newcomers and to returning old hands. That is why I have invested some of my energy into having the global-promoting stickies unstuck.
A fresh-start subforum for playable, crash-resistant maps would certainly be an excellent idea. Of course, the devil may lie in the details. Some pitfalls we may want to avoid:
  • Discrimination: All stand-alone map types should be included: SAM and CIC and other crash-resistant stand-alone formats.
  • No comments: Clearly, map makers want some comments on their creation, its the only reward we get. Imagine the warm glow in my heart when recently CaptainMidnight published his "Arizona Gold -Thanks!" thread! Perhaps posts in the new map subforum could have a link to the original map thread, so that comments could be attached there for the map maker to read and to react to.
  • Bare bones presentation: Certainly, the original map threads are a major help to people trying to decide which maps might be most fun to play for them (tastes will differ). Apart from the now irrelevant comments like "this map crashes continuously", of course. Perhaps one could state that the versions of the maps published in the new subforum have been tested as crash-free.
  • Limited testing: Maps included in the subforum should have been tested to a successful conclusion at least once, a major investment of time if the responsibility of only a few persons. I am pleased to say that all SAM maps I have tried really ran to the end without a single crash. And if a map is too boring for a tester to play through at least once, well, it probably should not appear on the subforum for finished mods in the first place! :D
Possibly there are other issues. These are the ones I could think of. To repeat: This sounds like a jolly good idea, Wolfwood!

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Greybriar
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Re: Is anyone else as confused as I am?

Post by Greybriar » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:55 pm

Go for it, Wolfwood!

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Jancsika
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Re: Is anyone else as confused as I am?

Post by Jancsika » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:59 pm

I have just checked some of the major gaming sites, like for Civilization and SimCity. They all have the upload completely separate from the discussions. Some of them have a link to the revenant discussion site. This type of reorganization would require a major undertaking and would also require a person with a complete understanding not just the site mechanics but also the maps in question.Karsten is right and the management should look into if it is feasible.
Jancsika
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snoopy55
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Re: Is anyone else as confused as I am?

Post by snoopy55 » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:45 pm

Hey, we're getting a bit deep here......

Karsten, in your post you tend to contradict yourself and some of it has been taken care of. "No Comments" - this has never been a problem. You want to comment on the map you downloaded from the SAM thread, go find it and do so. This is no different from what you have to do now. You download a map from the 3rd page and then want to comment on it, you search for it and do so. As I'm reading your post, what you want is a subforum that will end up consisting of 100 single post threads on 7 pages, and the post in each thread takes you to the original thread. Now we're back to a single map being posted to many places, which was just recently beat ragged. In "Bare bones presentation" you say that a person reads the whole thread for a map. I highly doubt that every new person coming onto the forum read the whole thread for each map before downloading it. I can bet that they download the map, try to play it, if it crashes they dump it, if it plays and they don't care for it they dump it and if they like it they play it out and then either keep a copy or dump it. As you state, "tastes will differ", and what you like may not be liked by another. In your next section there you say that if the map is to boring for the tester, it's not allowed. My testers have not stated as to whether they like them or not, they let me know if they play thru, and if they don't, they let me know as to what they think the problem is. If a new person makes a map and the tester says it's not acceptable, do you think he's going to strive to get above whatever is acceptable as a 'not boring' map? He might....or he might just walk away....... And what happens if the tester thinks it's boring, but a few members think it good...who do we go by? Who is the Judge? Snoopy Inc is not making SAMs out of these maps based on which we like or dislike, but as to whether they are part of this forum. And that is the way it should be.

On that, we cannot Judge any maps posted here on this forum. We may get a member who can make great maps, but lousy XML content. Someone else may be able to take that same map and write up great XML content to go with it, but a lousy Victory Conditions (VC), if any at all. A third member may come up with a great VC for the map. Every map has a potential to be the best map on the forum.

Let's leave it as it is. As the SAMs are done and Tazz puts a copy on the first post and a notice on the last, the maps thread will pop to the front, but will slowly drift to the back as new maps are created. 100 maps is going to create 7 pages whether they are on the original Mods - Maps section or in a Stand Alone Tested Maps subforum. What will be gained?

Jancsika - we have at the most, 20 to 25 active members, meaning they post. A couple of the SAMs have over 100 total downloads. To reconstruct this forum for 20 to 25 active members, and about 10 to 12 really active members is not something to be undertaken.

My opinions...for what they are worth.
I'm correct 97% of the time..... who cares about the other 4%....

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Greybriar
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Re: Is anyone else as confused as I am?

Post by Greybriar » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:18 pm

snoopy55 wrote:As the SAMs are done and Tazz puts a copy on the first post and a notice on the last....
That's what caused me to start this thread in the first place. It would be better if Tazz added a note stating "Last updated dd mm yyyy" (something like what would appear if the maker of the thread had edited it) to the first post rather than bothering to add another post to the thread.

snoopy55
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Re: Is anyone else as confused as I am?

Post by snoopy55 » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:01 pm

I seem to be misunderstanding something here....is there a problem with the maps coming to the front of the Mods - Maps section as the SAMs are posted to the first post? I'm guessing he did this to stop all the whinning that was done about to many posts of the same map in to many places. All that was probably done for was to let the members know that it was done. Also, that post he put in there creates a point at which all posts after that would most likely reference to the SAM and not the GLOBAL version. It allows a distinction of which version the posts are about.

All this is is another thing to heavily discuss that does not need discussion. Once I post all of the SAMed maps on that one thread, it too will slowly drift off to the end of the section.......

At this point I put my soapbox back in the storage cabinet and walk away from this thread.
I'm correct 97% of the time..... who cares about the other 4%....

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Greybriar
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Re: Is anyone else as confused as I am?

Post by Greybriar » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:29 pm

The problem is the message is at the bottom of the last page of the thread and the post that is being updated is at the top of page 1. It seems to me that any comment about the link being changed should logically go in the post where the change was made, not in a new post to the thread.

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vzbob
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Re: Is anyone else as confused as I am?

Post by vzbob » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:28 am

Greybriar wrote:The problem is the message is at the bottom of the last page of the thread and the post that is being updated is at the top of page 1. It seems to me that any comment about the link being changed should logically go in the post where the change was made, not in a new post to the thread.
The problem is now that there is the original map attachment and the SAM map attachment and in some cases the Map Installer in the same post the original attachment & Installer files should be removed and just the Newest working Map is left there so new people know which is the latest files to use.
This is just my 2 cents worth to make it easier.

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dwax
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Re: Is anyone else as confused as I am?

Post by dwax » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:40 am

I think if you start deleting all the maps but the Sam's there are going to be some very unhappy map makers screaming on the forum. :roll:
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vzbob
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Re: Is anyone else as confused as I am?

Post by vzbob » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:48 am

dwax wrote:I think if you start deleting all the maps but the Sam's there are going to be some very unhappy map makers screaming on the forum. :roll:
I don't see why as the map is still their map and still credited to them for making the map that is now working properly.

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dwax
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Re: Is anyone else as confused as I am?

Post by dwax » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:58 am

Also I can't use some Sam's, no matter what I do they just CTD. I can use the regular maps tho without a problem.
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