Quite often when I'm playing online, the issue of leeching comes up, usually in the form of a rude comment by the player being leeched (having their cities/goods raided) and a series of justifications by the leech. Opinions online seem to be divided: some feel 'all is fair in love, war and railroads' while others get really angry about it. Personally, since the game allows it and some bloggers on this site have promoted it as effective (which is often is), I don't think we're going to get rid of it. I think it's 'bad form' and try to avoid it, but I admit to doing it too sometimes. I tend to use the 'I don't do it unless he does' policy.
The other issue is using the glitch (or cheat, if you like) of crossing tracks by butting up against an opponent's track, then continuing on the other side without a bridge. Most people either use it (like me) or don't know about it, in which case they are usually told how to do it. Recently, though, I played a game against a very good player who considered it cheating (whereas he saw nothing wrong with leeching).
I'm curious about what the rest of you think about these two 'strategies'.
I look forward to reading your comments.
Track Crossing and Leeching
Both things happen in reality.
As to Leeching, a 'Customer' ships it by whatever way is available to him. In the game, the owner of the company makes money whether he ships the goods or not. In a way it's bad form to get paid for something you just throw out the back door. In this a 'production block' needs to be put on the industries, when it reaches a 'storage limit', no more can be produced until you get the 'wharehouse' space available.
Track crossing is another thing that 'IS' in real life. If you disallow it, would it be right for me to see that you are on the north side of a town and I cut so close to the north side that you can't get into the town? Heck, you can tunnel under a town or build a bridge over a town, both of witch exist in real life. The town I grew up in raised the tracks as bridges from one side to the other simply to keep from blocking the roads.
As to Leeching, a 'Customer' ships it by whatever way is available to him. In the game, the owner of the company makes money whether he ships the goods or not. In a way it's bad form to get paid for something you just throw out the back door. In this a 'production block' needs to be put on the industries, when it reaches a 'storage limit', no more can be produced until you get the 'wharehouse' space available.
Track crossing is another thing that 'IS' in real life. If you disallow it, would it be right for me to see that you are on the north side of a town and I cut so close to the north side that you can't get into the town? Heck, you can tunnel under a town or build a bridge over a town, both of witch exist in real life. The town I grew up in raised the tracks as bridges from one side to the other simply to keep from blocking the roads.
I'm correct 97% of the time..... who cares about the other 4%....
Yes, they do pass thru each other, done it and watched it. There are no signals for crossing tracks.
One other thing, sometimes if you cross another players tracks, it may prevent them from doing a double track at that point, or, you may not be able to do one IF they are able to. A bridge is required at this point.
One other thing, sometimes if you cross another players tracks, it may prevent them from doing a double track at that point, or, you may not be able to do one IF they are able to. A bridge is required at this point.
I'm correct 97% of the time..... who cares about the other 4%....
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Robinhood02
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 5:52 am
this is an old topic but heres my 2 cents
we have a rule that leaching is not allowed unless you own the industry
if you own the industry then you gain the rights to ship those goods created by the industry and only that industry
the penelty is a warning first , and if he doesnt delete those cars then an immediate quit of game
this rule is for all goods except people and mail
we have a rule that leaching is not allowed unless you own the industry
if you own the industry then you gain the rights to ship those goods created by the industry and only that industry
the penelty is a warning first , and if he doesnt delete those cars then an immediate quit of game
this rule is for all goods except people and mail
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vancouverexpress
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:52 am
Agreed. Leeching as I define it: You ship wood to town A & get the $. I take the wood to a paper mill in town B. It is no worse than buying the factory that I'm shipping raw material into & finished goods out of. Key word is strategyLagoon wrote:Leeching seems to have been intended by the designers, because in a very close multiplayer, how else are you going to beat your rival? It's strategy.
The track thing is an exploit so shouldnt be done in a fair game.
Now, if I was taking your wood & dropping it off at a city without paper mill or furniture plant, then that is wrong (& wasteful)
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darthdroid
- Posts: 368
- Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:42 am
I have to wonder if I'm the player you talked about as I agree with whomever you played: Leeching is legal, tracksneaking is NOT.
Here is why: First regarding so called "leeching":
If you get a good starting point and I do not, with a "no leeching" rule, this seems a tad unfair. however, if leeching is allowed, I can quickly move TO YOUR starting point thus making any starting points fair.
Second: You don't own any resources, so the concept of "leeching" really only reveals a lack of understanding of the game. You own tracks, trains, and stations, THAT'S IT.
Third: To take leeching out of it means you lost a huge part of the strategy, which is stealing finished goods or building where the profit is....frankly this IS how business works.
Business is NOT about being nice, it's about eating as much of the pie as possible, and the quicker I can eat YOUR piece, the quicker i win...get it?
So let's ultimately recognize the game for what it is: A business simulation.
Now regarding tracksneaking: Frankly, I don't care if you do it, if you do it then you're not very good...good players realize the power of bridges and don't feel the need to do it, so if you do it.....I'm gonna beat you by the very nature of why you tracksneaked (ignorance).
Why do I call it cheating? Because if you tracksneak and no one else does, you have a huge savings (from not building bridges) and thus IMO are stealing from the other 1-3 players. But again, I don't care, go ahead and do it. It's just that much sweeter when I beat you straight up when you were cheating
.
Lastly: why is one cheating and the other not? The nature of the "leeching" argument is "to be nice or not to be nice". vs the nature of the tracksneaking argument is "know how to play vs not know how to play" so to me they're nothing alike. a truly good player CANNOT be blocked because he/she knows bridges. And blocking is the usual whiny argument I hear for why someone tracksnuck.
Anyway, be careful out there, it's a crazy game
-Bob the Lunatic
Here is why: First regarding so called "leeching":
If you get a good starting point and I do not, with a "no leeching" rule, this seems a tad unfair. however, if leeching is allowed, I can quickly move TO YOUR starting point thus making any starting points fair.
Second: You don't own any resources, so the concept of "leeching" really only reveals a lack of understanding of the game. You own tracks, trains, and stations, THAT'S IT.
Third: To take leeching out of it means you lost a huge part of the strategy, which is stealing finished goods or building where the profit is....frankly this IS how business works.
Business is NOT about being nice, it's about eating as much of the pie as possible, and the quicker I can eat YOUR piece, the quicker i win...get it?
So let's ultimately recognize the game for what it is: A business simulation.
Now regarding tracksneaking: Frankly, I don't care if you do it, if you do it then you're not very good...good players realize the power of bridges and don't feel the need to do it, so if you do it.....I'm gonna beat you by the very nature of why you tracksneaked (ignorance).
Why do I call it cheating? Because if you tracksneak and no one else does, you have a huge savings (from not building bridges) and thus IMO are stealing from the other 1-3 players. But again, I don't care, go ahead and do it. It's just that much sweeter when I beat you straight up when you were cheating
.Lastly: why is one cheating and the other not? The nature of the "leeching" argument is "to be nice or not to be nice". vs the nature of the tracksneaking argument is "know how to play vs not know how to play" so to me they're nothing alike. a truly good player CANNOT be blocked because he/she knows bridges. And blocking is the usual whiny argument I hear for why someone tracksnuck.
Anyway, be careful out there, it's a crazy game
-Bob the Lunatic
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darthdroid
- Posts: 368
- Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:42 am
Exactly, you can own the industry, ie the factory but not the rights of shipment in or out. To make up your own rules is fine....but to expect other players to know and/or respect these rules that run CONTRARY to the game is a bit self absorbed and ridiculous.
Why not just learn how to play the game??? lol.
And you talk about some penalty..... you quitting only penalizes you, because you quit, nothing dignified about that.
Even if someone tracksneaks me, I don't quit. Even if they have 4x my revenue, I don't quit, and you know what, sometimes.....I come back, it's actually a pretty long game if you're playing good players....a lot can happen.
there really shouldn't be a discussion about who can ship what, frankly it's idiotic, it's clearly how the game was designed. By this logic, if you start by all the steel and bombs and I start with 1 fish..... that's fair eh??? No it's not and by your rules, the bomb player always would win. That's just stupid, go play dice if that's the kind of game you want. This is NOT a chance game, it's a STRATEGY game. It's also a business game, and in business you don't stay away from your adversaries' market shares, you TARGET THOSE MARKET SHARES.
You'll never get good at this game making up rules that make you feel safe and betray the nature of the game.
-Bob the Lunatic
Why not just learn how to play the game??? lol.
And you talk about some penalty..... you quitting only penalizes you, because you quit, nothing dignified about that.
Even if someone tracksneaks me, I don't quit. Even if they have 4x my revenue, I don't quit, and you know what, sometimes.....I come back, it's actually a pretty long game if you're playing good players....a lot can happen.
there really shouldn't be a discussion about who can ship what, frankly it's idiotic, it's clearly how the game was designed. By this logic, if you start by all the steel and bombs and I start with 1 fish..... that's fair eh??? No it's not and by your rules, the bomb player always would win. That's just stupid, go play dice if that's the kind of game you want. This is NOT a chance game, it's a STRATEGY game. It's also a business game, and in business you don't stay away from your adversaries' market shares, you TARGET THOSE MARKET SHARES.
You'll never get good at this game making up rules that make you feel safe and betray the nature of the game.
-Bob the Lunatic
Last edited by darthdroid on Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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darthdroid
- Posts: 368
- Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:42 am
One more thing, regarding leeching and the nature of economics.
This is PRECISELY how business models work: If there is excess profit, others enter that market. When there is not enough profit, folks leave the market....and this is what keeps things close to the "equilibrium point" regarding any supply/demand graph.
So it is only natural that if you have some high profit thing that another businessman will raise an eyebrow and expand into that location. Expect it and respect it, that's exactly what he should do or he shouldn't (and won't) be in business long.
If you're playing online multiplayer to do train table simulations, you're in the wrong place, plenty of room for that against AI or train table mode.
Online play is more of a business simulation and you should expect people to behave accordingly. So the modus operandi or status quo is of course to leech/steal/pillage/destroy competitors and so on.
If you want some friendly, pain-free game you're the minority so YOU need to announce that sort of thing to see if anyone is up for it.
This is PRECISELY how business models work: If there is excess profit, others enter that market. When there is not enough profit, folks leave the market....and this is what keeps things close to the "equilibrium point" regarding any supply/demand graph.
So it is only natural that if you have some high profit thing that another businessman will raise an eyebrow and expand into that location. Expect it and respect it, that's exactly what he should do or he shouldn't (and won't) be in business long.
If you're playing online multiplayer to do train table simulations, you're in the wrong place, plenty of room for that against AI or train table mode.
Online play is more of a business simulation and you should expect people to behave accordingly. So the modus operandi or status quo is of course to leech/steal/pillage/destroy competitors and so on.
If you want some friendly, pain-free game you're the minority so YOU need to announce that sort of thing to see if anyone is up for it.
-Bob the Lunatic