Mac User issues Thread

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karsten
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Re: Mac User issues Thread

Post by karsten » Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:15 pm

JRMacSMR wrote:So it looks like you cannot have a Custom Map with a new timestamp for common named file.
That is the same on PC, I always delete any custom map in the UserMaps folder before running an original map. :D

snoopy55
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Re: Mac User issues Thread

Post by snoopy55 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:03 pm

JRMacSMR wrote:
snoopy55 wrote:JRMacSMR - is this just on custom maps or on the original also.
snoopy 55,
Excellent question!

I did have crashes with the original maps when I have a custom map in the UserMaps folder. I just deleted the map.
I checked now with a Custom map and an old time stamp Original map loads fine, however when I change the timestamp of RRT_Goods (Custom map) the original map crash

So it looks like you cannot have a Custom Map with a new timestamp for common named file.

JR
Well, you misunderstood the question. What I meant was, if you run an original map and do a save, can you go back in and finish the saved original map, or does it crash?

In reply to what you stated, no, you cannot play an original map when there is a SAM or SAM2 in UserMaps or CustomAssets. Just like you cannot have more than one SAM/SAM2 installed and play both of them. The maps before Globals will work with multiple maps loaded, and you can load most of the Globals, but to many slow down the game and can cause crashes for lack of memory.

SAMs have files whose name matches the master XML file names. The game loads all the files, first the originals, then the ones from the custom map. When it finds two with the same name, it deletes the one with the older date code. This is the main reason you should not open and then save the original XML files as they will then override the custom maps files. Learned this the hard way when I first started creating the SAM type maps. Made for one heck of a headache!
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Warll
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Re: Mac User issues Thread

Post by Warll » Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:13 am

I do have a contact with Feral Interactive. I'll email them about the issue. In hindsight this seems so clear. We always assumed that SMR was prioritizing the custom assets and then using timestamps to resolve conflicts. Instead it was not giving any special treatment to custom assets and timestamps ruled everything.
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snoopy55
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Re: Mac User issues Thread

Post by snoopy55 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:00 am

First, we have known about timestamps control over which of two files of the same name would be used since atani and Dr Frag told us about it ~ 5 1/2 years ago. This is the only reason SAM and SAM2s were able to work. BUT, that was based on the principle of PC logic. Over on the other forum we are working with MAC users to analyze how the MAC logic applies in the same case. Some maps had to have the XML files 'unlocked'. We have yet to understand what that means and how the files became 'locked' in the first place since it does not happen on all maps tested so far.

As to Feral Interactive, I think it would be best to be able to do a thorough investigation of the problem before presenting them with it. I'm on it and asking for a few MAC volunteers to work directly with me.
I'm correct 97% of the time..... who cares about the other 4%....

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karsten
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Re: Mac User issues Thread

Post by karsten » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:35 pm

What Snoopy seems to be referring to is this quote from my AZ Canyon discussion way back in 2007 (Wed Mar 14). See viewtopic.php?p=14787#p14787

Gackbeard, Firaxis, wrote:
Quote:
... the way our filesystem works is that the newer file takes precedence when two or more files conflict (have the same filename).

Since this is original Firaxis Programmer information and this behaviour seems to have been copied in the Mac version, I see no reason to ask Feral Interactive to change it.

All new map files will take precedence anyway, and the old map files on our database only need to be updated with a current timestamp once. :D

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Re: Mac User issues Thread

Post by snoopy55 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:01 pm

whipstache wrote:I'm going to make a list of the SAM/SAM2 maps that my wife and I are able to get working, and which ones we can't.

All of the maps will be the versions downloaded from this site.
:crashed

I'll continue to update these lists as I try out new maps.

Working:
1. PITGOC - This map only worked after I opened each of the .xml files, unlocked them, and saved them again (using TextEdit)
2. Aberdeen, Carolina, & Western RR - This map only worked after I moved the .fpk file into the CustomAssets folder and unpacked it
3. Basin & Range - Had to unlock .xml files and save them again before it would work
4. Western Russia - Worked perfectly on the first try

Not Working
1. Dogworld - Crashes to Desktop while loading.
Research so far.....
PITGOC Cannot find a reason for the XMLs to be 'locked'
Aberdeen, Carolina, & Western RR The map was overlooked when we were replacing FPKs with warehouse folders. Is being retested.
Basin & Range Not sure yet whether the SAM or the SAM2 version was used.
Western Russia While this maps does use a RRT_Goods.xml, all Goods are original and fully listed so it is unknown whether the maps files was used or the Original.
Dogworld This map, all the way back to the original posted by Jimmylh, had the Scenario XML written as RRT_Scenario_Dogworld.xml instead of RRT_Scenario_User_Dogworld.xml. It runs fine this way on a PC, but could be the problem on a MAC. This too is being tested.

In JRMacSMR's post above he wrote: I have also noticed that on some maps like Italy the goods are incorrect it shows elves eggnog dolls etc while in the RRT_Goods they do not exist . I changed the goods file name to RRT_Goods_Italy.xml and changed the corresponding line in RRT_Scenario_Italy.xml. Now the Goods information is correct.
This tells me that the game chose to use the Original Goods XML over the Maps Goods XML. That is a problem. And while resaving to correct it is fine, it would be easier, at least on Bobby's forum, to post a set of MAC versions alongside the PC versions. Not all MAC users will read the forum to find out what is going on. The 'locked' XMLs also needs to be worked out. MAC users finding maps with this problem could 'unlock' the files and upload them to us to repost.

We will work out the problems one way or another, even if it means a whole set of MAC-SAMs to be posted.
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JRMacSMR
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Re: Mac User issues Thread

Post by JRMacSMR » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:42 pm

Hi All
These are my experiences with loading Customer Maps.

Action 1 Using an automator workflow to remove existing maps/FPK and to copy the Custom Map/FPK
Action 2 Using an automator workflow/applescript to open and save xml with "TextEdiT"

Custom Maps with FPK

The Custom Map I load in UserMaps. the FPK in custom assets. (Action 1)

When there are no custom mods or building blocks the map loads OK but have problems with goods as already explained.

If a map crash on load I use Action 2 then Action 1.

Custom maps without FPK
I copy all the Folders to UserMaps, when I have problems with loading the map I do action 2 followed by action 1.
Maps that don't have a custom Assets or Warehouse map and all individual files I created a Custom asset map and put all individual file in this map.

97% of the Map database base is working for me now after modifying the xml files.


The Time stamp
The time stamp generated is the time that the application is installed on the MAC
Demo version xml time stamp
created oct 19 2012
modified oct 19 2012
Last Opened oct 19 2012
Full version
created oct 19 2012
modified dec 1 2012
Last Opened dec 1 2012

The 1st dec is the date that I installed the full version. I am a concerned that the Modified date is not the same but might depend on when the software is installed

I don't have any problems with locked files but are aware that in the OSX locked files occur when not used for a certain time. It might also depend on the OSX version.

I have not changed the xml that came with the application and they are hidden within the application and can only be viewed using a certain action.

I will have a look at the CustomMaps listed i the previous post and post my results tomorrow

JR

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karsten
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Re: Mac User issues Thread

Post by karsten » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:35 am

Great contribution, JRMacSMR! :P

I would assume the SMR Full version created datestamp is Oct 19 2012 for every Mac User, irrespective of when the game is installed.

Then any maps with timestamps later than Oct 19 2012 should work - leaving aside any problems .fpks may cause. 8)

For example US_Southeast Version 2 By TMiller, Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012, should work directly after download (ie without needing to create new datestamps for the mod files), since the crucial XML files in the mod (Goods, Tunnels, Loadscreens) all have a datestamp later than Oct 19 2012 (screenshot). The map is posted in 4 zipped files, but at least it has no .fpk files.

I certainly would not change the xml files that came with the application! When you say "remove existing maps/FPK" I assume you mean "remove mod files from UserMaps", not any change to the original game files. :D
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TMiller XML files.jpg

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Warll
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Re: Mac User issues Thread

Post by Warll » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:50 am

I contacted feral interactive and they have been very supportive. The exact quote:

"Thanks for all the feedback please let the community know that although I am a little rushed off my feet right now their feedback is making it to the right person and I will (within limits) try and make the Mac version the best version for stability and modding. You all get better modding tools and we get happier customers which should mean more positive reviews :)

Feedback does not need to be game related if someone finds a repeatable crash in the main game let me know (preferably with a save game) and we will log it to be investigated with the dev team."

I am going to open a forum thread where we can concentrate feedback so we can point them to a single place for points of improvement.

This exact issue with timestamps is best solved by feral interactive. SMR is pooling all resource files and then sorting by timestamps. Instead SMR should prioritize assets in the custom maps directory.

Remember Feral interactive has the source code. We are forced to use subpar work arrounds for windows SMR since development is abandoned. Mac SMR does not have this issue. Remember even if we did update all the map's timestamps any update to core game files would undo all that work. Much better to fix the under lying bug.
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karsten
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Re: Mac User issues Thread

Post by karsten » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:15 am

In reality, the time stamp feature is not a bug. It is a design decision and thus a feature, that all current user content works with.

If this "bug fixing" is performed only for Mac and not for the PC version, Mac users won't be able to play existing SMR user maps, which rely on these "bugs". Worse, PC users won't get to play any new Mac-based maps.

On the other hand, if the "bugs" are fixed for both Mac and PC, we risk that all historical maps will become unplayable unless reworked (- extensively?). :roll:

I hope you know some retired people on SMR who could afford the awsome investment of life time such a reworking would imply, just to get the existing maps to work again after the great "bug" fix. :lol:

Wouldn't it be great if some Feral Interactive resources were instead spent on providing new content for Mac and PC users? Or on fixing real bugs, like the disappearing decorations, without making historical maps unplayable? :D

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Warll
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Re: Mac User issues Thread

Post by Warll » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:02 am

Kasten I do not think you understand where the timestamp bug is coming from.

In psuedo code SMR is doing this:

Code: Select all

var assets[] = getAssetsFromProgramFiles();
assets += getAssetsFromUserdir();
sortByTimestamp(assets);
var assetLookUpTable = convertToHash(assets);
Instead it should do:

Code: Select all

var assetLookUpTable = convertToHash(getAssetsFromProgramFiles(assets));

var assets[] = getAssetsFromUserdir();
sortByTimestamp(assets);
insertArrayIntoHashTable(assetLoopuptable, assets);
Of course this pesudo code will look nothing like the real code and has some bugs of its own but the key idea is there. Instead of pooling all resource files from every directory SMR should prioritize custom assets.

This bug does not matter on windows because Fraxis is never going to update SMR. There is also 0.0000000% risk that this bug fix will break existing maps. No map work will need to be redone.

This is not a bug that any map "relies on". We are not talking about changing syntax or an ABI. There is no way for a map to have relied on this bug. It is not really even a bug just a design decision that makes developing custom maps harder.
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JRMacSMR
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Re: Mac User issues Thread

Post by JRMacSMR » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:08 am

karsten wrote:Great contribution, JRMacSMR! :P

I would assume the SMR Full version created datestamp is Oct 19 2012 for every Mac User, irrespective of when the game is installed.

Then any maps with timestamps later than Oct 19 2012 should work - leaving aside any problems .fpks may cause. 8)
After a bit of research on the internet I am now able to specify the modify date I like, So I did some further testing on Italy RRT_Goods.xml by changing the modified date to oct 20 2012
and nov 1 2012 and the elves where still there, however changing the date to dec 2 2012 the elves disappear.

JR

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karsten
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Re: Mac User issues Thread

Post by karsten » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:13 am

Warll wrote:Kasten I do not think you understand where the timestamp bug is coming from.
It is not really even a bug just a design decision that makes developing custom maps harder.
Warll, I fully agree with your last sentence (see my previous post). My concern is that we should not just throw away all historical user maps which work with this design decision. I would be interested to learn how your pseudo code is going to solve that risk. :?

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karsten
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Re: Mac User issues Thread

Post by karsten » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:15 am

Excellent work, JRMacSMR! :D

snoopy55
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Re: Mac User issues Thread

Post by snoopy55 » Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:24 pm

I'll post this and then back off until I get this worked out by working with a couple of MAC users.

If the timestamp is Oct 19 2012 for the MAC version then I have several people that will assist me in changing the timestamp for the needed files in all of the SAM/SAM2s. All this will do is put the timestamps in the year 2013 which will in no way effect PC users in playing the maps.

The FPK problem is only from maps on this forum as all maps on bobby's no longer contain them.

The 'locked' problem found by one MAC user can also be resolved by a few MAC users assisting us.

There are a few other things, but I'll leave it at this as I don't want to cause a problem here.
I'm correct 97% of the time..... who cares about the other 4%....

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